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Why have you ruined Able2Know?

 
 
Phoenix32890
 
  4  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 06:48 am
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye- C DeK has mentioned a number of times that the new site is in a ROUGH state. It might be helpful to all of us if we had a little patience. Good grief..................Do you realize all the work that has gone into this new site? Would you rather have had Craven say, "screw it" and shut down the site?

We are going through a process. Let's enjoy, and watch it develop!
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 06:56 am
@Phoenix32890,
hear hear, phoenix.
0 Replies
 
Mame
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 07:49 am
@hawkeye10,
Aren't you jumping the gun a bit here? This site just came up. Why not see how it all shakes down instead of predicting doom and gloom? It could be much better. Sounds like you've got your teeth into an issue and are on a tangent.

People can still post what they want - this new system doesn't prevent anyone from discussing/debating anything. I don't see how a voting system is any "worse" than getting slammed in writing from the majority who respond! That's actually worse - voting down could be just a lack of interest on someone's part where a verbal ticking off is personal.

If you want to spend time primarily with those "who value minority views", ignore all users except those. Simple.

There's always someone who makes mountains out of molehills. Are you that person?
0 Replies
 
thoke
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 10:37 am
@Craven de Kere,
"Sure a bunch of people are going to ignore you but their right to do so is much more important than your desire not to be ignored."

What absolute twaddle. A person's right to be heard is more important than another person's right to be ignorant. IGNORing people is IGNORant. Expressing unpopular opinions is incredibly important.

Why have you ruined Able2Know? I haven't heard a satisfactory answer yet.

Ben
Craven de Kere
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 10:39 am
@hawkeye10,
A2k can host debate just fine. People who weren't interested in reading your opinions before were not conducive to debate either. People who did will probably not ignore you. The only thing you no longer have is the ability to get your posts in front of people who have no desire to see them.

I don't think you are losing any ability to debate through that, just the ability to annoy.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 10:43 am
@thoke,
You log in with the wrong username and start whining that your posts are gone when they are not and claim I "ruined" able2know?

I don't feel compelled to give you a "satisfactory" answer. If people want to ignore you that's their right. If you want to express "unpopular" opinions you can do so, but complaining that people now have tools to ignore you is silly.

I'm not going to find ways to ensure that people can't ignore you. Your opinions are simply not that important. Nobody's opinions are. If others want to ignore them they are perfectly within their right to do so.
thoke
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 03:09 pm
@Craven de Kere,
I'm sorry if this wasn't clear, but by "you" I didn't just mean you personally. I meant "you guys at Able2Know"... have ruined your own website.

And I clearly made a mistake with my username, but I don't see what that has to do with the fact that you ruined Able2Know.

I've never heard of a "right to ignore". I have heard of a right not to be ignored.
Craven de Kere
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 03:21 pm
@thoke,
I have never heard anyone speak of a right not to be ignored. In fact, it's completely alien to any system of rights I can imagine.

Your rights end where the rights of others to peaceful coexistence begins. Of course they have a right to ignore you! If you really believe the right not to be ignored trumps the right to ignore then you should send your email address to a few spammers (don't ignore them now) and see how long that lasts.

The people who were willing to read and interact with you guys and your opinions before will likely continue to do so. The people who would get all worked up about how you guys are ruining a2k can now just ignore you and have no real reason to bother you.

So it's not about debate, or unpopular opinions. The only thing you are losing is your ability to annoy people, and if it was just the negative attention you were getting off of well, yes, you may have to find it elsewhere.

Quote:
And I clearly made a mistake with my username, but I don't see what that has to do with the fact that you ruined Able2Know.


That was one of your first complaints, and it was your own mistake. That makes it relevant because you used it to criticize others when it's your own brainfart. It's relevant in that your claim that all is "ruined" might just include a bit of hyperbole.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2008 03:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
it is also about the ability of a2k to include minority views, and you have of course made any person with a minority view less welcome to participate, less able to participate.

I have a feeling it's more about your desire to act like an asshole and have everyone pay attention to you.

Now that folks can just say "oh, that asshole again" it's gonna take a bit more finesse to troll people.

I think you'll find there are plenty of folks willing to debate minority views; just few people willing to put up with you being an asshole when you present them.
thoke
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 03:50 am
@DrewDad,
But hawkeye is usually very calm and sensible when he presents his minority views. You're the one calling people assholes. He wouldn't do that to you. He doesn't come on here to abuse people, he comes on here to express his views (which are often very controversial (and also false, in my opinion)). If you are going to call somebody an asshole just for expressing his views, then you're part of the problem hawkeye is describing. You, and others, will shut yourselves off from the views of hawkeye and others. Not because hawkeye is being particularly rude or deliberately annoying, but simply because you disagree with his views. People with mainstream views will be heard by most other users on the site. People with minority views will more often be ignored.

Can't you see a problem with this? A2K will be like China.
0 Replies
 
thoke
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 03:59 am
@Craven de Kere,
"I have never heard anyone speak of a right not to be ignored. In fact, it's completely alien to any system of rights I can imagine."

This was exactly my point about your use of the phrase "right to ignore".

The right not to be ignored is, I think, part of the right to free expression.

Controversial opinions will do nothing to prevent the peaceful coexistence of other users on Able2Know. Users should perhaps have the right to ignore abuse and personal attacks, but not relevant points of view.

"...your claim that all is "ruined" might just include a bit of hyperbole."

Of course it does. That doesn't mean there's no truth in it. The people at Able2Know have made their site significantly worse, and I don't understand why.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 12:29 pm
@Craven de Kere,
Craven, when u refer to " the growth " do u mean growth in new users of the forum ?




David
Craven de Kere
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 02:32 pm
@thoke,
Quote:
The right not to be ignored is, I think, part of the right to free expression.


agrote, you simply don't understand freedom of expression then. Your freedom of expression is not mitigated by having others ignore you. Freedom of speech doesn't mean nobody's allowed to hang up on a telemarketer or filter spam. It means the government will not prohibit and punish the expression. The people are free to ignore at will.

The same is true here. You can express yourself even if people ignore you, and insisting on a "right" to have the site prevent them from ignoring you is as absurd as it is unrelated to free speech.

Quote:
Controversial opinions will do nothing to prevent the peaceful coexistence of other users on Able2Know.


I didn't make that claim. A big reason I made these tools is so that people who have such visceral reactions to controversial opinions can just ignore them instead of clutter them with their censure or try to get the site to censor them.

By making the tools easier for the different preferences we can be more flexible about what is censored by the site. Now we aren't trying to censor some expression that we used to because we expect the user to be responsible for it if it bothers them.
Quote:

Users should perhaps have the right to ignore abuse and personal attacks, but not relevant points of view.


Users have always had the right to ignore whatever they want, and there is no way for you or I to change that. Now they just have tools to do so, but there's still no way for you and I to decide what others should ignore. And what I'm trying to have you understand is that you have no right to try to do so.

Quote:
The people at Able2Know have made their site significantly worse, and I don't understand why.


You'd have to understand the notion of subjectivity and free speech to get it, and I'm unconvinced I posses enough patience to get you through that impediment. You portray this as censorship of free speech when it is, in fact, a great reduction of censorship due to the greater individual freedoms.

I for one, would have no problem arguing with you here. The people who put you on ignore are going to be the ones who were already trying to ignore you. The people who want to discuss things with you will continue to do so. You sound like you just want the negative attention that you used to once complain detracted from your "debate".
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  2  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2008 02:34 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I mean growth in all the basic meanings of the word. Traffic is growing, the database is growing (with each post) etc etc.

This site has struggled with growing pains significantly and we are doing some extra things to keep this one from struggling like the last one did.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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