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good history books?

 
 
OGIONIK
 
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2008 05:29 pm
Anyone have any suggestions? should i divide history into certain empires and go from there?

basically what i want to do is read the history of human beings, in detail from the VERY beginning.

it sucks because so many empires overlap, i have a haard time keeping them in chronological order (in my head)
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Feb, 2008 05:36 pm
i read penguin books history of the world, but it was not detailed at all.
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Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 05:19 pm
I like keeping a good timetable around. The internet is fine when you know what are looking for, but this book links history into a comprehensive perspective all in one big volume:

The Timetables of History: A Horizontal Linkage of People and Events by Bernard Grun and Eva Simpson

To me, the fun begins with the Neolithic period:

Inside the Neolithic Mind: Consciousness, Cosmos, and the Realm of the Gods by David Lewis-Williams and David Pearce
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 07:07 pm
The neolithic period, however, is not an historical subject. That is a period which can only be described as pre-history.

If you wish to start from the beginning, i suggest you look up a gentleman named Mommsen. Theodor Mommsen was a "classicist," which among historians, means that his area of concentration was "classical history," and in the 19th century, that meant the Greeks and Romans. His history was not restricted, however, to just the Romans and Greeks. In history textbooks well into the 20th century, in the United States, the references to the ancient history of the middle east is littered with citations of Mommsen. Mommsen's particular interest was the Roman Empire, and Roman law. To this day, no one has explored the subject as thoroughly. In 1902, shortly before he died, Mommsen was awarded the Nobel prize for the body of his life's work. It would be difficult, however, for you to find books to buy in English which had been written by Mommsen. You would be well advised to find a good library system which can find his books on interlibrary loan. His books remained in print for a half-century or more after his death, because he was justifiably considered the source on ancient history, especially Roman history. I read them as a child, because even the small town library where i lived had English copies of his works, and most of them had been published fairly recently (the 1930s or -40s).

You can read about Mommsen in this Wikipedia article.

Otherwise, you should go to primary sources, which means, for all practical purposes, you would start with The Histories by Herodotus. He is often criticized by modern historians for being naive, or lacking method. But he is careful to state that he is reporting what was told to him, as opposed to claiming that he knows things for a fact. His subject was, basically, the origins of the wars between the Greeks and Persians. He was modestly well-off, and he traveled extensively in the area of the eastern Mediterranean, visiting the scenes of action about which he wrote, and interviewing witnesses to events, or the descendants of witnesses. Along the way, he provides a great deal of information about the people of the region, and their legends and cultures, as well as the state of knowledge at that time. He is more honest than almost all other historians of the ancient world, because he does carefully point out that he is reporting what was told to him, rather than what he knows to be fact. Most ancient historians shamelessly lied about their subjects, even to the extent to putting long speeches into the mouths of famous men, which they could not possibly have heard, and for which they could not possibly have had witnesses with photographic memories. Also, so many ancient histories are panegyrics, which means works full of praise, which the writer produces because he greatly admires the person about whom he writes.

You earlier expressed an interest in Alexander III of Macedon (allegedly, Alexander "the Great"--as you probably have figured out for yourself, i don't personally believe that there was much great about him). There is a book which you shouldn't have any problem finding, either through the library or to order from a book store, which Anabasis, usually rendered The Anabasis. There are two such works which survive completely from classical times, one is the Anabasis Kyrou, by Xenophon, an Athenian mercenary who was among those hired by a Persian petty king who wanted to overthrow his emperor. He failed, and lost the battle, but the Greek mercenaries, immortalized as "the Ten Thousand," survived and marched away to the north. They were in the area of what is today central Iraq. They marched to the coast of the Black Sea, so that, technically, it was not an anabasis, but a katabasis. Anabasis means "the march up country," and refers to a march inland from the sea; katabasis means a march from the interior to the coast. However, the Greeks marched north, and were obliged to march through what are now the mountains of northern Iraq, through the area of the Kurds, so it certainly seemed to them like a march upcountry. It is a famous work of ancient literature, and it has assured that the name of Xenophon lives on, more than two thousand years after he died. He wrote a good deal more, which ought to be of more intellectual interest, but he is remembered for that book.

The other Anabasis is the Anabasis Alexandri, or "The march up country of Alexander." Lucius Flavius Arrianus, known generally as Arrian, was a Romanized Greek who lived in the first century. Obviously, the account is not contemporary, but it is the only complete history of the campaigns of Alexander which is based on first-person accounts of eye-witnesses such as Aristobulus, Nearchus and Callisthenes (who was the nephew of Aristotle). Arrian also had a complete copy of the biography of Alexander by Ptolemy Soter, one of Alexander's generals and allegedly his half-brother. Ptolemy founded the Greco-Macedonian dynasty that ruled Egypt for more than two centuries, finally ending with the suicide of Cleopatra (Cleopatra was a common name of women in Macedonia in the era of Alexander, Alexander's sister was named Cleopatra). Arrians work is the most complete account, and not just because it has survived in full, but because he made the effort of a sincere and competent historian to write a complete account of Alexander's campaigns. The account is refreshingly free of judgmental passages--he neither condemns nor praises Alexander. To read this book, you will want to look for "The Anabasis of Arrian," because otherwise, you'll probably come up with the book by Xenophon. To add to the confusion, Arrian was called "Xenophon" in the largely Greek communities in which he lived.

When you've digested that, come back and i'll give you a list of primary sources for the Romans. Unfortunately, there are no great literary histories by western writers about China or Japan, so digging through the library is just about your best bet for that.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 07:27 pm
There's another ancient writer who might interest you. His name was Plutarch, and he was another Romanized Greek. He wrote biographies of ancient men of the eastern Mediterranean. He wrote several important works which survive. One is Parallel Lives, which gave "thumbnail" biographies of famous men of the ancient world, and compared them for their virtues or their failings. It is often criticized, justifiably, because he uses a shoe-horn to pry the people of whom he writes into the moral boxes he wishes them to occupy. Nevertheless, there is no other work of the ancient world which has so much information on the lives of men about whom we would otherwise know very little. He also wrote a life of Alexander which is probably not as reliable as Arrian's Anabasis, but which is full of anecdotes and what he claims is factual information which is provided in no other source.

He also wrote a life of Pyrrhus, a mercenary general from what is now Serbia (there weren't any Serbs there then, so it would be wrong to see him as anything other than a cousin of the Greeks and Macedonians). Pyrrhus was the King of Epirus, on the western side of the mountains opposite Macedonia. In his lifetime, the Epirotes were considered the greatest soldiers in the known world, surpassing even the Macedonians. He was hired by the Italic League, the league of Greek city states at the southern end of what is now Italy. They were alarmed by the rise of the Roman Republic, and wanted Pyrrhus do destroy them. Pyrrhus did his damnedest to accomplish that end, but nobody in the ancient world was prepared to deal with the Romans, including Pyrrhus. Because of the Roman system, you could destroy their armies, and they would promptly produce new ones. At Asculum, he destroyed a consular army (roughly, 20,000 men), but his own casualties were so heavy that he was forced to retreat half the length of Italy, and to hire almost an entire new army. It is claimed that he looked on the battlefield with tears in his eyes, seeing all the Roman dead lying in rows where they had fallen in their unbroken lines, and said that if he had had soldiers such as these, he would have conquered the world. Eventually, the Italic League went broke and couldn't hire any more troops, or pay Pyrrhus, so he got out of Dodge. This was in the period of the first half of the third century BCE, and Plutarch's account is the only complete account of this period, and is even more complete than the account of Livy (Titus Livius, the great Roman historian of the early history of Rome). For all his faults, Plutarch is one of the greatest of the ancient historians.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Feb, 2008 07:43 pm
Not a book by a historian, but by an artist: a gossipy read that worked for me to make a past century not all that far away -

Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini
There are varied translations and I remember liking one better than the other(s), but not which one, though I think this one was the version I liked.

The book description on Amazon -

'You should know that men like Benvenuto, unique in their profession, need not be subject to the law.' Thus spoke Pope Paul III on learning that Cellini had murdered a fellow artist, so great was his reputation in Renaissance Florence. A renowned sculptor and goldsmith, whose works include the famous salt-cellar made for the King of France, and the statue of Perseus with the head of the Medusa, Cellini's life was as vivid and enthralling as his creations. A man of action as well as an artist, he took part in the Sack of Rome in 1527; he was temperamental, passionate, and conceited, capable of committing criminal acts ranging from brawling and sodomy to theft and murder. He numbered among his patrons popes and kings and members of the Medici family, and his autobiography is a fascinating account of sixteenth-century Italy and France written with all the verve of a novel. This new translation, which captures the freshness and vivacity of the original, is based on the latest critical edition. It examines in detail the central event in Cellini's narrative, the casting of the statue of Perseus.

More on the book -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0192828495/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-3015461-2795317#reader-link
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 12:36 pm
id like to read about the day to day lives of , well the poor people in ancient societies. the guys who did all the manual labor, their recreation, drug use, sex lives, music, art ,games, sports, etc.

any suggestions for that subject?
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Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 12:44 pm
OGIONIK wrote:
id like to read about the day to day lives of , well the poor people in ancient societies. the guys who did all the manual labor, their recreation, drug use, sex lives, music, art ,games, sports, etc.

any suggestions for that subject?


The Mammoth Book of Eye-Witness History
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 12:46 pm
awesome, thanks!
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 03:21 pm
Robert Gentel wrote:
OGIONIK wrote:
id like to read about the day to day lives of , well the poor people in ancient societies. the guys who did all the manual labor, their recreation, drug use, sex lives, music, art ,games, sports, etc.

any suggestions for that subject?


The Mammoth Book of Eye-Witness History


does that cover every continent?
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 03:54 pm
OGIONIK wrote:
id like to read about the day to day lives of , well the poor people in ancient societies. the guys who did all the manual labor, their recreation, drug use, sex lives, music, art ,games, sports, etc.

any suggestions for that subject?


I'd not use the word 'ancient', but Peter Robb goes back to the landing of Pedro Alvares Cabral with (12) ships in northeast Brazil and the consequences of that landing and subsequent traffic in slaves from Africa, and the development of the urban southeast in Brazil, and much more - and stated much more readably than I just did, with plenty of stories about street life, including re the experiences of Lula (Luis Inacio da Silva).

The book is Death in Brazil, Peter Robb



Sorry, Ogionik, this didn't directly answer your question. You might be interested at some point later.
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OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 03:58 pm
I hate you. please never post in my thread again! now git! just kidding.

any true info on world history is priceless.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 04:00 pm
I like your interests, Ogie..
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:32 pm
ogionik :
you might want to have look at a list of : HISTORY MAGAZINES .
it gives you a wide choice of magazines that will lead you to many history books .
HAPPY READING !
hbg

ps. have you ever had a chat with your local librarian ?
he/she might even be willing to order some books for you (we can make suggestions to our city library and often the books will be purchsed in due course - saves a lot of money and makes books available to other readers too)
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 06:44 pm
an excellent on-line source for history is this website of the BBC :
BBC - ON-LINE HISTORY

Quote:
Make sense of the past
This site is dedicated to bringing history to life, for the casual browser and the total enthusiast.

Experience history through animations, games, movies and virtual tours, or delve into more than 450 feature articles by leading writers.




it's free - it's instant and has beautiful illustrations .
you can't go wrong having at least a look at it .
hbg
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Feb, 2008 07:31 pm
OGIONIK wrote:

does that cover every continent?


I think there are several different Mammoth Book of Eye-Witness History volumes. I don't recall each of the texts I read in them, but it was a large collection of first person accounts and I remember accounts from all continents except Antarctica. It's not a traditional history book that aims at telling a complete story. It consists only of first person accounts and thusly only has what is available within those parameters.

Very interesting stuff. An example of some of the accounts I remember offhand were:

Lawrence of Arabia: being tortured by Arabs
A Japanese man's account of the aftermath of the atomic bomb from close range.
A reporter observing the scene of Che's death and the CIA agents who were involved.
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