What's wrong with this country!?!

I dunno stray cat.

maybe littlek is saying the gov't should pitch in more?

But, they would probably only feel they should pitch in if someone wasn't making a lot to begin with, and didn't have anything left over anyway.

I don't think they would feel obligated to pitch in if you make $80,000 or $100,000 household income but have a mortgage of $2K, $3K or $4K a month because you wanted your kids to live in a decent neighborhood, and are putting away for the future for them or you.

I don't think I'd want to sell my house for the few years my kids need day care either.

And I wouldn't want to stop investing.

And the gov't would tell me I make too much for them to think I needed any help.

It's a conundrum.

Boy I'm glad I don't have kids.

I'm gonna go shoot some heroin and read a book.

I can do that because no one is gonna come up to me and tell me about the science fair project they have to turn in tomorrow.

g'night john boy.

Goodnight, Mary Ellen!

There are reasons for low income-earning women to continue working even though much of their pay is going to daycare:

1. Keep their foot in their working world

2. Mental stimulation

3. Sometimes small children are more exhausting than work

4. Socializing their children

I don't think governments have an obligation to help anyone except lowe income-earners, whatever their gender. I think if you earn at the poverty level, your daycare, transportation costs and medical/dental should be free. It would be an incentive for some parents to get back into the work force, contribute and pay their taxes. It's also an acknowledgement by the government that poverty sucks.

Chai - (good night!) - Not so much the gov. as the people. I don't like it when people who don't have kids (I don't have kids, and I'm not talking about anyone here) complain about paying school taxes. Like the neighbor's kid, or the inner city kid, isn't part of the same society.

Mismi - I am not looking for a fight and I don't want to really be arguing about this. Why don't you think that so many would refuse public pre-school? If it's there, people will use it. Especially if we fund it well enough for it to be good. I worked at an elem school with this service, every socioeconomic group used it. They are trying to add another classroom.

None of us gets to decide where our tax money is spent. We all pay for services we don't use or want. The tax rate needs to be as high as it needs to be in order for our society to work (I am obviously liberal). Right now, education isn't really working that well. And, I don't give Bush credit for much, but there is some good in the NCLB Act - but, it needs to be better funded (along with other fixes).

First, I agree that childcare providers are grossly underpaid. Second, the idea of a prestigious pre-school so Johnny and Susie have an advantage over the kids who went to lesser preschools or, god forbid, didn't go to pre-school is just about the most obnoxious thing I've seen in years. Third, whatever happened to letting kids be kids until they were, I don't know, 5 or 6 years old and enrolled into the 'system'? Kindergarten now has an academic curriculum. So does pre-school. I'm glad I'm not a kid.

I am so glad you aren't in for a fight...I really am just looking for clarification I guess. I am not so sure that people wouldn't use the public daycare services if they were available. I am just saying I wouldn't and most of the people I am around wouldn't - we are all stay at home moms - lower middle income with kids that are pretty young. Money is hard to make stretch out and yet because we are so blessed we don't really see the benefits of those tax dollars...and yet - when I look at DH's check - I am so sad at what I could do with even 1/3 of the money taken out by the gov't. Like I said - my husband is away alot to make that money and he sacrifices time and effort to give us the little extra we have. I have to do things I hate (like starching and ironing those dern shirts) just to afford the small extras.

I know a lot of people don't seem to mind that their money is going places that they don't see the benefits of personally...and maybe I am just selfish...I hope not. I love taking care of my kids and volunteering up at the Church and at School. It's not like I am playing tennis with my girlfriends at the country club...I am working for free in my public school...doing fundraisers, coordinating science enrichment programs...anyway...those dollars my husband earns goes to someone else, portions of it anyway...I will have to go back to work for us to get a car that carries my boys when they get bigger..and I know there are worse things...but if I had that money I probably wouldn't have to.

We certainly support our share of Charity's. My husband and I are very proactive with the money we have. We invite the people we know who don't have family near over to eat with us. We keep kids of friends so they can go out on a date night, we give above and beyond to help those we hear are in need. I like to see that money used that way...

If taxes keep going up - I will have to go to work - it just doesn't seem fair is all. I know - there are people who live with so much less and it does make me ashamed to feel this way...and I suck at politics...I don't get it...I don't care about it....basically I just think that you should get what you earn and be able to use it how you see fit...it doesn't really work that way does it? I know...I am all over the place here....please forgive me...

I would hate to work in a pre-school...that is a lot of stress for very little pay.

I so agree about the schooling - why would I want my kids speaking Latin at 4 when I can hardly understand his English? I think kids should be kids...they get to do all that schooling for long enough once they hit K5. Most kids I would say pick up reading really fast. Mine did...they did not go to pre-school and they were reading simple things by the end of the school year...I think it is just as important to let them enjoy that free time until school begins at 5.

What's wrong with this country?

It's a democracy and we are the voters.

Thats what wrong with this country.US

Amigo, good point.

It took me a long time to figure this out and I learn everything the hard way...activism, protest, Flying to protest, going to see speakers and idealist, distributing literature, Talked to whole groups, broke the law, challenged riot police, studied pacifism, you name it.

I was going to fight the man with the power of the people. The masses would rise and justice would prevail.

I wish I could have all my time and energy back.

The masses are what the masses are and have been since government was invented. It doesn't matter if its communism or capitalism.

If we are apathetic, ignorant, complacent etc, etc, then it IS justice that we are in the place and position we have allowed others to put us in ourselves.

The masses are the perfect victim.

We are beast of burden. Except unlike an ox that can't speak, reason, read, learn or act in it's own defence we can. We just don't.

Go look at the revolutions. It gets so bad that people would rather die then live so there is a revolution. Then in a short period of time the masses are back in their place.

Abandon the masses. Be a freethinker. Find a way to be happy without being or creating victims.

dunno. if you abandon the masses, your freethinking has a very limited value.

when i teach classes i have one main goal: to get at least one student interested in something. i don't care if it's journalism, or environmentalism, or human rights. a Cause...a spark...anything. but once you decide you can't get people motivated, it's over.

...and don't even get me started on those who don't vote because 'it's n ot worth the effort'.

Yes I know. I am struggling with this.

I am frustrated and bitter with my fellow Americans. As I learn there is no telling were my thinking can go next.But I believe I will always maintain this view to a good degree. I am searching for a way to make it more positive.

You get paid to teach that student and apathy is absent.

I was volunteering to save the world which I believe now to be kind of arrogant.

What percentage of the population does that student make up?

How much are you willing to gamble on that classrooms outcome in 25 years? Were will they be? Will they change the world or will they fall in with the massas after the dream is over and the bills are due?

Liberal? Conservative?(by their original philosophical meaning because that is what we are talking about)

Does my freethinking have a limited value or have we over valued the masses capacity for responsibility and enlightenment.

Were do you, deep down inside put your money?

I am just now getting into Europe and Russia and have to profess my ignorance. But from what i've seen with my eyes and experience here in my lifetime in America..........I don't know what to say.

Sartre and Mark Twain. Those are my guys. They got it right.

I think most of us are this way -- trying to do the best we can with what we have and not wanting to rely on the government. You and I and many others are blessed to have a partner, which makes things a lot easier.

But some people no longer have or never had such a partner. If they want health insurance (among other things) for their children they need to work. If they work, they need affordable child care. I think we will start to see a lot of this with all of the young Iraq widows with small children. Hopefully their communities will be there to help out.

One thing to keep in mind about "the government" is that we tend to think of it always in terms of the feds, when in fact there are many forms of government. Often, state and local governments can do a better job and be more efficient because they're closer to the people they serve. This is clearly not always the case, but it seems likely that people have a better chance of influencing their local governments and getting the services that are most needed in their community. Many states have a public pre-k program, mine included. The problem comes when the state itself is just too poor (or too corrupt) to help out in these circumstances. I'm thinking of places like Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Kentucky, etc... People with means (aka tax base) move out just as soon as they can and all that's left are people without means who require services and cannot/will not leave the state.

Often it's worth it in terms of health insurance for the entire family. If the husband loses his job and insurance, the wife will still have her's and can carry the rest of the family ( both in terms of health insurance and salary).

Many of those at the poverty level, here in the USA, do get free health care, transportation to the clinic, some forms of daycare... and now, in Mass the first 2 years at a community College.

They also have 7+ kids, no husbands, and on top of all that, they're overweight by about 50 pounds, diabetic and plain lazy. They're NOT interested in RETURNING to the work force, since they've NEVER worked a day in their lives...Why should they, when welfare, medicaid, food stamps,...etc are readily available?

Do you have stats that show this is true? Most people use public assistance as a temporary measure.

OK, I'm going to take a big chance and show my complete ignorance…but I'm going to confess I have no idea what this is all about, and don't believe it any of it amounts to a hill of beans. Maybe that's wrong, maybe it's stupid, but it's the absolute best I can come up with.

Amigo, I tried to carefully read everything you had to say, and can see you have a lot of passion for something, not I don't see what it is, and frankly, I don't think I'm capable of ever seeing it clearly. I don't consider myself an apathetic person, I'm not ignorant about many other subjects, and I think sometimes what people see as complacency is really someone being patient at the moment.

I am going to confess something, and honestly, I don't even have the right words to make a proper confession….

I have tried, have literally gone into a sweat and burst into tears trying to understand even the basics of our political system. I have listened, taken notes, gone over my notes with the person who initially giving me the information and made corrections, tried to make my own charts, chains of command, matrixes, comments on definition of terms so I can better understand, and from one minute to the next could not remember who does what, or what the definition of the title of whoever it is we're talking about is.

I'll tell you a truth…
I have absolutely no idea what the difference is between what a congressman, a senator (and there seems to be several types of senators, that do different things but they all call themselves senators, but sometimes some of the senators call themselves something else so you don't realize you're talking about the same person) and a representative is. It has been explained to me dozens of times, by different people, and like I said above, I make notes, try to memorize, use any learning tool I know of, but I simply cannot remember or keep it all straight. Even talking about it right now, my heart rate has increased because I'm frustrated even talking about it, and if I keep going, I would feel like there would be tears threatening to burst forth. I have even been taken off projects in my job because it involved tracking political stuff, and I would consistently get everything mixed up, no matter how hard I tried.

So…don't talk to me about being apathetic. I just can't retain it from 1 minute to the next, and I've tried for years (and years) so finally, I said "screw it"

Next, not everyone is capable of being involved in protests, handing out literature and all those other things you were saying you do or did. I feel very strongly about certain things, as we all do, but I simply don't have the personality or the skills or knowledge to even stand there handing out brouchures or whatever, because as stated above, I wouldn't have a clue as to what to say to people as I did it.

Anyway, keeping all that in mind….

I don't feel like a victim
I don't feel like a beast of burden
I have abandoned the masses and am a free thinker…
In fact, from what I have seen while trying to understand all this stuff, it gave me the impression that all the people who did now about it were the masses, and they wanted me to think like them.

You said something about going out and saving the people.
Well, I'm a people, and I've never felt like I had to be saved from anything.

If I was to loose everything tomorrow, I wouldn't feel like a victim, and certainly wouldn't think someone staging a protest or standing on a street corner was helping me in any way. In fact, I'd probably try to distance myself from the kind of stress people doing that would induce with me, and concentrate on what I could do right now I what I had to do.

Showing my ignorance again, I really haven't noticed how anyone at these speeches and protects and such do anything more that "talk" I mean, as far back as I can remember, these people have been "talking" about the same thing, while it's more like I have actually done something that sometimes doesn't work, but usually does.

I like you a lot amigo, and totally respect what you feel you are doing is right, but I cannot stop my eyes from glazing over at the type of thing you do.

Chai...I am actually with you on this. I don't understand our government either. My husband laments my illogical questions and solutions constantly. I don't really feel the need for help from the government...I do lament all those dollars going to things that I don't really know that they are going towards. I just think simplicity is the best way to deal with things...see someone in need - help that person. Need money do what you need to - cut back the budget, lose the Steak night on Fridays..whatever.

If I have to I will get a job...but I can't find a job that fits my needs - so I have to put the kids in daycare...but I would really rather be able to be home with them in the evenings and during the summers...I do get resentful every once in a while of the folks who seemingly have it easier than my family. But - the opportunities they have and that we have are totally different. But I am not going to feel sorry for myself and my family because friends know folks that give them a leg up and we don't. I actually am more riled about working hard for something and it being taken from us and not knowing where it is really going. And usually all it takes is thinking of the families in Africa that struggle with things so much more dire to put things back in perspective...I truly am ashamed at times.

I wish there was a Politics and Government for Dummies book out there....there may be...but I am pretty sure MY eyes would glaze over as I read it....

Where does my responsibiliy for myself and that for others begin and end...and how come someone else has a say in it? And should someone else have a say in it?

I have totally become unfocused somewhere in my writing and I totally forgot the point of my post...okay - going to read the Stinky Cheese Man to four year old man child....

Amigo, I admire your passion but your summary above is unfortunately spot on. Mr B sums it up by saying that the people (the masses) usually end up with the government they deserve. Not to be interpreted as the one they should have, but the one they've let take over, be it by election, coup, or war.