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Alternative home buying methods for Muslims re interest

 
 
Reply Sat 2 Aug, 2003 04:26 pm
I wonder if this method of home mortgage payments will have the same tax benefits as those paying interest?

BumbleBeeboogie
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Companies Devise Financing Alternatives for Muslim Home Buyers Prohibited From Paying Interest
By Wayne Parry Associated Press Writer
Published: Aug 2, 2003

CLIFTON, N.J. (AP) - For more than a decade, Daoud Othman and his family have rented a small apartment and dreamed of owning a home with a yard for the children to play in.
Othman thought about applying for a mortgage from a bank, but as a devout Palestinian Muslim he couldn't, bound by a prohibition in the Quran against paying interest.

But now, Othman and many others like him are joining the ranks of homeowners using special Islam-approved financing, a fast-growing phenomenon that has been common in Muslim nations for years, but is only now catching on in this country.

"I've been wanting to get a home, but I wanted to do it the right way," said Othman, who owns a heating and air conditioning business and came to the United States 14 years ago. "It's not easy because everyone offers mortgages with interest, and I refuse to do that."

Instead, Othman entered into an investment contract with a Virginia-based financing company, Guidance Financial Group, under which they will jointly own the three-bedroom ranch he is buying for $270,000. He put $70,000 down, and will gradually pay off the balance over 30 years.

Basically, Othman will pay the company rent on the portion of the house it owns, as well as some on top of that to gradually buy out Guidance's ownership. Because the payments are considered rent on a tangible property, and not simple interest on borrowed money, the transaction is permissible.

Sharia, or Islamic law, prohibits interest, but permits profit on a business venture involving a tangible asset, according to Islamic scholars.

"It looks like interest, but they call it profit," Othman said. "It's a co-ownership. They own the house with me, and it's like they're renting part of it to me."

The homeowner is responsible for paying taxes and insurance. All told, Othman's monthly payment will be between $1,500 and $1,600, about the same as if he had taken out a conventional mortgage from a bank. Over time, Othman's equity in the house will increase as Guidance's decreases, and after 30 years, he will be the sole owner.

Yahia Abdul-Rahman is the founder of American Finance House-LARIBA, a Pasadena, Calif., company that offers Islamic financing. He said his company has closed more than 1,000 contracts with clients in 34 states since 1987.

"If you come to me and say, 'I want to finance a house, what is the interest rate of the day?' we do not believe in interest. We believe in rent," he said. "We are going into a joint relationship to buy that house, and you buy shares back from us over 20 or 30 years."

The rent is based on what the property can lease for on the open market.

With its numbers in the United States estimated from 1.2 million to 6 million, the Muslim community offers a large untapped market for home financing, even though not all Muslims shun conventional mortgages. Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored home financing giant, is investing in mortgages from several Islamic companies.

"This is a group that is growing at a very quick pace," said Brad German, a spokesman for Freddie Mac, which invested $1 million in American Finance contracts in 2001, and has since put $100 million into similar deals. "Because of the religious requirements of Sharia, they're obviously having a difficult time becoming homeowners. This serves a very important need."

Muslims in the United States are estimated to spend $10 billion to $12 billion a year on goods and services, according to Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Mortgages aren't the only transactions being marketed to Muslims. Car loans and even stock market investments are being tailored to meet the needs of Islamic buyers. Dow Jones & Co. offers an Islamic market index, a group of stocks that don't invest in companies that sell alcohol, tobacco, or pork. It also shuns conventional interest-charging banks.

Many of the Muslims who buy homes under the no-interest pacts still file for and get the mortgage interest deduction on their tax returns, calculating the rent and buy-out payments as the equivalent of interest. The IRS has not taken a position on whether such deductions are permissible, spokesman Bruce Friedland said.

In the meantime, Othman is eagerly looking forward to moving into his house late this month on a tree-lined cul-de-sac.

"It's the American dream," he said. "Actually, my dream was to buy a farm in Pennsylvania, but this is a nice dream, too."
---------------------------

On the Net:
http://www.guidancefinancialgroup.com

http://www.americanfinance.com/LARIBAIslamicMortgagesTheMarket.h tm
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2003 12:38 am
The article answers the question on taxes:
Quote:
Many of the Muslims who buy homes under the no-interest pacts still file for and get the mortgage interest deduction on their tax returns, calculating the rent and buy-out payments as the equivalent of interest. The IRS has not taken a position on whether such deductions are permissible, spokesman Bruce Friedland said.

emphasis mine.

Push will come to shove when some IRS examiner says "Hey, this isn't interest, it's rent. It's not mortgage payments, it's share buy backs" and the Muslim taxpayer says "Well, it's the same thing." and the IRS says "Not unless you get a change in the language of the law or the language of the Koran." The IRS has been about as fundamentalist as any mullah in interpreting language of a tax rule.

Somebody better file for an exception before this gets a lot of Muslims in trouble.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Aug, 2003 03:26 am
It all amounts to semantics. A share buy back ('business dispensation') is interest is usury.

Actually, the religious ban on usury began with Jews: a Jew could not
charge interest to another Jew. Israel Shahak tells us in his
Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of Three Thousand
Years
, Ch3 Orthodoxy and Interpretation, The Dispensations.
"(1) Taking of interest. The Talmud strictly forbids a Jew, on
pain of severe punishment, to take interest on a loan made to
another Jew. (According to a majority of talmudic authorities, it
is a religious duty to take as much interest as possible on a
loan made to a Gentile.) Very detailed rules forbid even the most
far-fetched forms in which a Jewish lender might benefit from a
Jewish debtor. All Jewish accomplices to such an illicit
transaction, including the scribe and the witnesses, are branded
by the Talmud as infamous persons, disqualified from testifying
in court, because by participating in such an act a Jew as good
as declares that 'he has no part in the god of Israel'. It is
evident that this law is well suited to the needs of Jewish
peasants or artisans, or of small Jewish communities who use
their money for lending to non-Jews. But the situation was very
different in east Europe (mainly in Poland) by the 16th century.
There was a relatively big Jewish community, which constituted
the majority in many towns. The peasants, subjected to strict
serfdom not far removed from slavery, were hardly in a position
to borrow at all, while lending to the nobility was the business
of a few very rich Jews. Many Jews were doing business with each
other.

In these circumstances, the following arrangement (called
heter 'isqa - 'business dispensation') was devised for an
interest- bearing loan between Jews, which does not violate the
letter of the law, because formally it is not a loan at all. The
lender 'invests' his money in the business of the borrower,
stipulating two conditions. First, that the borrower will pay the
lender at an agreed future date a stated sum of money (in
reality, the interest in the loan) as the lender's 'share in the
profits'. Secondly, that the borrower will be presumed to have
made sufficient profit to give the lender his share, unless a
claim to the contrary is corroborated by the testimony of the
town's rabbi or rabbinical judge, etc, - who, by arrangement,
refuse to testify in such cases. In practice all that is required
is to take a text of this dispensation, written in Aramaic and
entirely incomprehensible to the great majority, and put it on a
wall of the room where the transaction is made (a copy of this
text is displayed in all branches of Israeli banks) or even to
keep it in a chest - and the interest-bearing loan between Jews
becomes perfectly legal and blameless."
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 12:45 am
hey wow ...that is extremely interesting.

but wouldn't it be totally obvious to anyone concerned that ,
while the letter of the law was being upheld...the spirit was being totally violated.
I mean what's more important here...
keeping your local social group happy or going against the wishes of the ancients and the big guy.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 01:16 am
needsandwant
needsandwant, I suppose going against tradition would be the same as the Christian Reformation, long over due in Islam, don't you think?

BTW, welcome to A2K, glad to have you here.

BumbleBeeBoogie
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 01:59 am
hey thanks, good to be here.

well what I know about Islam you could write on the back of a postage stamp.

mostly that there is a big black meteor inside the intriguing cubed temple at the centre of Mecca..
and I would love to get a look at that thing up close.

apart from that, I'm always careful to separate ideology from application.

Hmm just thought of something…

Every time you get a reformation…Christians splintering from Jews ..Henry the 1/8 etc etc, you get long lasting civil conflict.

I really hate the waste in human effort and life, incurred by those conflicts.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 09:15 am
needsandwants
needsandwants wrote:
Every time you get a reformation…Christians splintering from Jews ..Henry the 1/8 etc etc, you get long lasting civil conflict.

I really hate the waste in human effort and life, incurred by those conflicts.


True, change is hard. But the Christian Reformation made a huge difference in the lives of Christians and some in their attitudes towards other religions that is with us today. The attitute of fundamentalists of every religion is the problem today.

BBB
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 11:57 am
Well I suppose it's ok to talk about the Reformation in this forum since from what little I know of it,
it was mostly about money.
Wasn't the main problem the fact that the church was selling passage to heaven…
With a big enough donation…You could buy a stairway to heaven….And the reformers were a bit sick of all the money being drained away from every day things for overdecorated Churches and the like.

See, now the people of the big black meteorite …they are the exact reverse of that.
They are absolutely disgusted at the western preoccupation with the materialistic trappings of life.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 12:05 pm
BBB
You are correct in your understanding. But once the flood gates were opened by the money issue, it resulted in other important reforms that reflected their times.

I think it would benefit Islam to go through a reformation in its religious tenets and also the governance of Moslems around the world.

BBB
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 12:19 pm
I'm not sure that will work.
theory and application are the problem.
ideas only work in the ether of the mind.
once they hit the cold air of reality concessions must be made.
and the downfall is always a concession.

What I have figured out is that the " bell curve" …will occur in any expression of human reality.
There will always be a small group of extremes.
They must be planned for.

If you want a crazy reformation…what about this…Albert Einstein looking for God within the Arabic numbers of physics' unification theory calculus.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 12:42 pm
BBB
Gol Dang! Lock that crazy genius up before he causes any more trouble.

BBB
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 01:11 pm
good to see you have a sense of humour..

umm..

what I was trying to say was that..
even at a meeting about where to paint a line on a tennis court,
you will get a few individuals who get all bent out of shape and may even resort to violence to get their point across.
people are like that about everything they feel passionate about.
It's just people. you have to work with it. Manage it.

What other things did the Reformation do to benefit the lot of Christians everywhere?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 01:15 pm
BBB
Drat, I forgot to write down the events as I was watching them unfold.

BBB
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 01:24 pm
ok ok I'll go and read up on it myself.

have a good one!
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 06:26 pm
ohh I get what you mean now.
sorry, we were talking at cross purposes.

I thought you were talking about reforming the most fanatical characteristics of the faith.

You just meant the loan side of things.

well that may work...
some of those integrated systems of belief and behaviour are fiercely interknit...and there is a possibility that if you remove one card the whole lot will come down.
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Sun 30 May, 2004 11:26 pm
Because bees are very small the air behaves more like a viscous fluid (like treacle) and they create vortices down the outside of their wings. It is the pressure differences in these vortices which allow the bee to fly.


when you are small...flying, is more like swimming.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 31 May, 2004 12:24 am
Needs
Needs, fascinating information. Aren't bees amazing insects. Have you ever read the book "Bumble Bee Economics"?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674085809/104-9287607-5057534?v=glance

BBB
0 Replies
 
needsandwants
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 12:37 am
you have got me interested now..I will track it down and read it.

I have watched bees...there is an open sided hive at the local museum.
Many creatures working as a singular unit.
Standing out (with ants) as the creatures most like human civilisation.


the drones are the most curious...not workers...and not the queen...

thanks.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 01:18 am
Bees
Bees are a good example for humans of the benefits of a cooperative society. Even in housing.

BBB
0 Replies
 
tony2481
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Jun, 2004 09:19 pm
How would the investment contract be inforced in the event of the "borrower" defaulting? Would it require more in depth civil litigation than a mortgage forclosure? In the event of a forclosure, would the "business investor" be able to collect proceeds of the liquidated equity? Howw would the purchase be recorded? Does the word "interest" direcly translate into arabic? How is the "rental" cost to the borrower determined? How is it different from interest? How do we christians determine weather or not we are working on sunday? Is it work if we are compensated for it? Is it work if it involves labor? Do golf or fishing count as work or reflection on the lord? What if you win $20 playing golf with your buddies, is it then work because you were compensated?

Some of these questions may be satirical, but what is the point. If you are paying rent, you are paying rent. If you are paying a premium on the cash used to buy you home, you are paying interest. If the cash was not a loan, and you are not paying interest, not only would the tax deduction not apply, but in the event that one could not repay the debtor or "co-investor" then the real estate laws provide the buyer/resident very little of the legal protection afforded under a mortgage. The dividing of the assets would be more like a divorce.
0 Replies
 
 

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