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Decoding the Pope's words about the dangers of secularism in society

 
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 07:45 pm
@msolga,
There's a piece of personal background about Mr. Ratzinger that you may not be aware of, but that's fairly common knowledge in his native country of Germany. Back in the 1960s, Ratzinger started out as a professor of theology, a very liberal one. He also participated in the second Vatican Council in 1962 on the side of the reformers that ultimately prevailed in it.

His turnaround came in the end of the 1960s, when violent Marxist students picketed and disrupted his lectures. Reacting to the Marxist's violence, Ratzinger decided that the Catholic Church needed to take a stand against them. Over time, he turned increasingly conservative and doctrinaire.

My best guess is that his paranoia about "aggressive secularists" is a calcified behavioral pattern. It started as a justified response in his encounters with those 1968 Marxist students. And when Marxism died away, his reaction survived, just as the smile of Carol's Cheshire cat survived the cat smiling it.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 07:47 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
It's a common mistake. And in Ratzinger's case, it's a justifiable one because he isn't usually inclined to blather, whatever his other failings may be. If he is staying as vague and content-depleted as he is, it's probably because anything more specific would be so easy to attack.

Which aggressive secularists wish to exclude the church from public discourse? (Even Richard Dawkins doesn't---he only things the church's arguments should no longer get a free ride just because it's a church making them.) And, exactly how is religion supposed to guaranty "authentic liberty"? What specific contribution to liberty can we expect from the particular religion that brought us the Holy Inquisition? As soon as the Pope talks about concrete things like these, he can't win anymore. That's why he's staying so vague. That, at least, is my take on the speech.


Thank you again, Thomas, for taking the time to respond. (I was genuinely bamboozled by his words!)

I suspect, though, that there might be some who don't see his words as being quite so vague as you do.

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 07:51 pm
It would be good to receive some responses from those who might agree & are sympathetic toward the Pope's statements. (I promise not to attack you. Wink )

I have to leave now, but any further comments would be appreciated. (This may turn out to be a very short thread indeed! Wink )

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 07:53 pm
@Thomas,
I followed him in about '64 in the National Catholic Reporter. He was way overboard back then.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  4  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 08:16 pm
@msolga,
Those are easy. Here's what he's really saying...
Quote:
In his homily, the Pope warned against people who seek "to exclude religious belief from public discourse". Earlier, he urged the UK to resist "more aggressive forms of secularism".

That translates to: "we're losing control and we don't like it".
Quote:
In his sermon in Glasgow, the Pope said that those individuals who wished to exclude religion even went as far as painting it "as a threat to equality and liberty". But he insisted: "Religion is in fact a guarantee of authentic liberty and respect."

That translates to: "Don't listen to all those bad opinions about religion, we are the light of the world, follow us."
Quote:
The pontiff also said that a "dictatorship of relativism" threatened "to obscure the unchanging truth about man's nature, his destiny and his ultimate good".

That translates to: "Here, drink this kool-aid, it's good for you."
Quote:
He added: "Society today needs clear voices which propose our right to live, not in a jungle of self-destructive and arbitrary freedoms, but in a society which works for the true welfare of its citizens and offers them guidance and protection in the face of their weakness and fragility."

That translates to: "Freedom is dangerous, you need our guidance, and pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
Quote:
... He added: "Today, the United Kingdom strives to be a modern and multicultural society. In this challenging enterprise, may it always maintain its respect for those traditional values and cultural expressions that more aggressive forms of secularism no longer value or even tolerate."

That translates to: "We want to talk a good show, but in the end you need to toe the line and get back to doing what we tell you."
hingehead
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 08:18 pm
@msolga,
I guess ratzy gets a bit annoyed about everyone having a go all the time?
Stephen Fry:
http://richarddawkins.net/videos/519516-pope-should-not-have-a-state-visit
Geoffrey Robertson
http://www2.lse.ac.uk/publicEvents/events/2010/20100908t1830vSZT.aspx
Ross Noble on Twitter:
realrossnoble
RT@bbcnews Pope warns young against temptations.Shouldn't that be pope Warns against young temptations

Tim Minchin


It just goes on and on....
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Sep, 2010 10:04 pm
I don't read him now. I've read him at length earlier, and there is no apparent change, re my looking into current comments..
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:36 am
@rosborne979,
Well that clears that up very nicely, then, Rosborne! Wink
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:39 am
@hingehead,
It was a state visit, funded by the British tax payers?
Well he's just shown his gratitude by insulting quite a large number of them! Neutral

0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 01:48 am
@msolga,
Reading that Guardian article a bit more closely: pedophilia is an "illness"? Does that mean that it wasn't within the power of offending clergy to stop themselves? Therefore somehow it couldn't be helped & so they're excused? Confused :

Quote:
The pope's comments on secularism and atheism came in marked contrast to the conciliatory and contrite words he offered victims of Catholic sexual abuse.

In a 15-minute long briefing to journalists aboard the papal plane this morning, Benedict described pedophilia as an "illness" whose sufferers had lost their free will.

Using his strongest language to date on his church's record on clerical sex abuse, he deplored its failure to act swiftly and decisively in the past.

"It is difficult to understand how this perversion of the priestly mission was possible," he said, adding that the church was "at a moment of penitence, humility and renewed sincerity".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/16/pope-benedict-xvi-atheist-extremism

He said the first priority was to help the victims to recover from the trauma they had undergone "and rediscover too their faith in the message of Christ".
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:16 am
I think that both the BBC and Telegraph article want me to be mad about this. To what extent they are right, I'm not sure.

The way I see it, we have two options.

1) Try to crack the code.
2) Stop giving a **** about what the Pope says in code or otherwise.

These options aren't just for atheists, but for believer as well. If I was a Catholic, my options would be the same.

A
R
T
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:22 am
@Thomas,
Somehow I missed this earlier, Thomas.
Interesting.
The parts of his Glasgow speech I've read sound more political than religious in tone to me.

Quote:
His turnaround came in the end of the 1960s, when violent Marxist students picketed and disrupted his lectures. Reacting to the Marxist's violence, Ratzinger decided that the Catholic Church needed to take a stand against them. Over time, he turned increasingly conservative and doctrinaire.

My best guess is that his paranoia about "aggressive secularists" is a calcified behavioral pattern. It started as a justified response in his encounters with those 1968 Marxist students. And when Marxism died away, his reaction survived, just as the smile of Carol's Cheshire cat survived the cat smiling it.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:26 am
@msolga,
http://tuttologia.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/pope-benedict-palpatine.jpg
The pope... er... Palpatine smiled after dissolving the Senate.

A
R
T
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 02:29 am
@failures art,
I think you're asking for trouble, Art!
Oh my!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 05:59 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
Reading that Guardian article a bit more closely: pedophilia is an "illness"? Does that mean that it wasn't within the power of offending clergy to stop themselves? Therefore somehow it couldn't be helped & so they're excused? Confused :

I don't think that's what it says necessarily. For example, my former employer classified alcoholism as an illness. When they caught employees drinking on the job, they wouldn't fire them for it. Instead, they would send those employees into rehab on the employer's clock and pay for it. If the employees rejected rehab, or didn't stay sober after getting out, then the employer would fire them. If the pope, being those priests' chief employer, enacted comparable consequences for them, I would have no problem with his classifying pedophilia as an illness. But notice that the Guardian's article doesn't mention consequences like that. Indeed, it doesn't mention any consequences at all.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 06:09 am
@Thomas,
No, it doesn't, Thomas.
It does mention hope for rehabilitation of the victims & restoring their faith in the church, though.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 09:30 am
@msolga,
Quote:
In his homily, the Pope warned against people who seek "to exclude religious belief from public discourse".
Earlier, he urged the UK to resist "more aggressive forms of secularism".


In regard to "aggressive forms of secularism," in an interview with German magazine Focus he said that “an aggressive new atheism has spread through Britain. If, for example, you wear a cross on British Airways (BA), you are discriminated against”.

He was referring to the disciplinary action BA took against an employee for refusing to cover a crucifix she had been wearing.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 09:41 am
@msolga,
Just for the fun of it, I'm going to take a clinical and hard-line view on all this...
Quote:
The pope's comments on secularism and atheism came in marked contrast to the conciliatory and contrite words he offered victims of Catholic sexual abuse.
In a 15-minute long briefing to journalists aboard the papal plane this morning, Benedict described pedophilia as an "illness" whose sufferers had lost their free will.

In other words, The Devil made them do it! Perhaps it's time for a good exorcism to chase the devil from those priests...

Honestly, isn't it time for this medieval mindset to go away?
Quote:
"It is difficult to understand how this perversion of the priestly mission was possible," he said, adding that the church was "at a moment of penitence, humility and renewed sincerity".

It's not difficult to understand. These priests have "issues" which predate their inclusion in the church. They are subliminally aware that they are twisted and they seek to console themselves by becoming "godly" and by submerging their desires in ritual. But their desires can not be suppressed indefinitely because they are human beings, and the very cloister they seek to hide themselves in becomes an avenue for hidden abuses. And then it all spirals out of control.
Quote:
He said the first priority was to help the victims to recover from the trauma they had undergone "and rediscover too their faith in the message of Christ".

The abusers (the priests who represent the church) can't be the ones to help the victims recover, and the recovery process itself shouldn't be used as just another excuse to push Christian values back onto the victims. This is just a blind self-serving behavior by the church to promulgate its own ideas again.
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 10:36 am
@msolga,
That is cool: The dictatiorship of relativism... When all dictatorships have been built upon absoultism what sort of dictatorship would a dictatorship of relativism be???... In the sense that underlying all democracy in the West is the notion that all are Equal in the Eyes of God, for which thought Nietzsche heaped contemely on the Head of Sr. Paul, he is correct... But that metaphysical statement of equality whether coming from Paul or from Jefferson's All men created Equal; not the church and not humanity for a moment has bought what was so clearly offered without proof... Humans are identical, and equality is a moral form that has yet to be given force by our social forms, including the Church... Science has done much more to establish our equality as fact than the church, or religion... And even science has yet to cross the hurdle that while all are equal more are different....

The churches and religions should all be got out of our political discussions... It is not to much to ask that those who have faith in God demonstrate some faith in God and get their irrationality out of the business of rational people which is self government... We cannot count on God saving us from disasters, tornados, huricanes, floods, draughts, wars, or famines... Provisions have to be made, and since our governments are not blessed with Josephs who can see the fat eating the lean, we must all commit ourselves to preparation for the unknown that we know must be coming since it has come before... Irrationality as religion is has no palce in government...

If people owe their aliegence to their church they cannot be thought as acting in the general public's interest any more than if they were working for some foreign power... Government must work for all the people, and this people supports churches and church property by carrying the burden of their taxes... Taxes are the sacrifice people must pay to belong to sociaty and have a voice in the affairs of government... If they don't want to pay they should not play...
0 Replies
 
Eorl
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2010 03:35 pm
I've changed my signature for the occasion.

For a very long list of Hitler religious quotes....

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/09/list_of_hitler_quotes_in_honor.php#more
0 Replies
 
 

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