Old Testament--are its laws applicable to Christianity???

Ahhhh...so you have visited me twice to tell me you are ignoring me!

Interesting way to do that.

As for the laughter...you know me, Beth. Anything for a laugh.

Laughter is the most important part of my life.

Or with the "naaaa" were you meaning you were not ignoring me?

Why would I ignore you?

Why would anybody????

I don't ignore you, Frank. Just haven't been on religion discussions lately. Seems the a2k religious posters mainly concern themselves with the evolution threads lately.

Jeez, Edgar. I musta been away a long time. I didn't know you had become a Christian. Last person I woulda thought would make the fall!

There are no atheists in foxholes, Frank.

I've always wondered about that!

I guess the atheists must be the ones doing the charging!

I can't speak for the rest of us, but I joined the Navy for the express purpose of avoiding a foxhole.

Frank who?

Finally! A live one!

Hi Frank. I won't get into a long debate or anything. I just want to post a couple thoughts.

First, the Old Testament Law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. You may take issue with this, but it is a fact.

Some of those laws were to advise the Israelites on how to obey and please God. The Ten Commandments for example. Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin. Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations. The laws about food and clothing, for example.

The Old Testament law really doesn't apply to us today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law.

Ephesians 2:15 says "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments cntained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace."

Romans 10:4 reads "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Galatians 3:23-25 tells us "But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."


In place of the Old Testament law, we now come under the law of Christ, which is to, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind … and to love your neighbor as yourself”

If we obey those two commands, we will be fulfilling all that Christ requires of us.

This stuff could be debated forever. The bottom line is that if one lives by the new law then everything should be wonderful. We both know, however, that this is not the case.

We can only do our best and hope, in the end, that it is good enough. I think that this last line applies to Christians, athiests and agnostics alike.

Intepid...sorry you don't want to get into a long debate...but that is your choice.

I will comment on some of the things you said, though. Gotta take advantage of a "live one" when one comes your way, ya know.



I don't take issue with that at all. There were no Christians when the laws were given. This thread is not about to whom they were given...it is about to whom they apply.



It is interesting that the three quotes you offered here are all from Paul. The quote I offered (in the text) is from Jesus...and Jesus says the laws do apply.

Makes one wonder if you are defending Christianity or some religion that should be call Paulianity.

Jesus said he did not come to change the law. If you read what I wrote up above...it appears Paul was especially concerned with changing the parts of the law dealing with circumcision and dietary restrictions...rather than the entire of the law.

And even if the argument is that “the law” does not apply...the fact remains that the Old Testament not only give us "the law"...it also tells us what pleases and offends the god. Remember...the god we are talking about is THE GOD JESUS WORSHIPED. And even if you want to pervert what Jesus said about the law...and accept what you think Paul said about the law...what the Old Testament tells us about what pleases and offends THE GOD JESUS WORSHIPED does not change.

So...the fact that the god of the Bible is offended greatly by homosexual conduct...still stands. The fact that the god of the Bible says that slavery is moral...still stands. The fact that the god of the Bible feels that people who are blind or who have limps or diseases profane holy places by their presence...still stands.

Right???



According to Paul. BUT NOT ACCORDING TO JESUS. With all the respect in the world, Intrepid, why do Christians constantly put the word of Paul ahead of the word of Jesus?



I have often articulated the notion that if everyone lived their life in accordance with the majority of the teachings of Jesus...the world would be a much, much better place...a Heaven, in fact! I'm not much into his “love God” nonsense...but the rest of his teachings, like the teachings of many enlightened humans, are right on the mark.




On that, we can agree. And if we can have some fun arguing about interesting things like the issue being discussed here...so much the better.

Correct?

Correct. We do agree on some things.

We will not change each others minds on what we do not agree, but that is not my intention anyhow. Actually, you have caused me to look at some things differently. Just not on religion.

Cheers.

Probably because I've seen no intelligent discussion. Only insults and bashing.. That type of attitude isn't worth our time. We as Christians are ordered to give an answer to every man the reason for the faith within us. We are also told not to cast our pearls before swine. So those who are truly seeking answers and desire to engage in meaningful respectful discussion we will be inclined to discuss with.. Those who just wish to bash and name call are just not worth our time. Their minds are set and have no desire for respectful debate.

Okay, When I got to the second page I found some intelligent discussion. Maybe Ill give my two cents worth. I agree with what Intrepid said but I have some to add as well.

Basically the Jews created laws out of 10 simple commandments. Basically if you follow the 1st commandment everything else falls in line.

I would say that the law was divided into Ceremonial law and moral law.

The ceremonial law was done away with, though its original purposes and its design in revealing the attributes of God to us are still valuable in our understanding of the nature of God.
As for the moral law, As we see in the Ten Commandments Jesus actually expanded them. As Intrepid pointed out Jesus said Mth 5:17 " Do not think that I came to destroy the law or the Prophets , I did not come to destroy but to FULFILL. For assuredly, I say to you till heaven and earth pass away, on jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is FULFILLED. .... For I say to you , that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees, yo will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
continuing.
You have heard that it was said of old, " You shall not murder".... but I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment... vs 27... You have heard that it was said to hose of old " You shall not commit adultery. But I way to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Basically what I see here is that Jesus has revealed the truth of the law to mankind. The Pharisees were the "holier than thous" of that time. Proud of their "righteousness" For Jesus to say that one must surpass that level of righteousness showed how futile mans righteousness is... Is 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing. And all our righteousness's are like filthy rags...

Jesus has revealed basically an impossible righteousness. That every thought of sin is now equal to sin. A simple look is sin. Anger or hate without cause is sin.. This is an impossible standard.

This is because Jesus fulfilled the law. Jesus became the righteousness the law required because he is the only one ever in history to be perfect and live the law perfectly and without sin.

Heb ch7 deals with Christs righteousness.
7:12 For the priesthood being changed of necessity there is also a change of the law. .... vs 16 ... who has come , not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life... vs 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, for the law made nothing perfect, on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God..
So the law was not profitable to perfection.. Jesus as the fulfillment of the law became that perfection on our behalf.
So basically here is how it plays out The acceptance of Christ in our lives IMPUTES HIS Righteousness into us. This is what perfects us in God's eyes. When He sees us He sees the righteous blood of His Son. We are not justified by our own work but the finished work of Christ.

Does this mean we cannot learn anything from the moral law.. Absolutely not... The Law was given to define sin. When Jesus came he clearly explained that the letter of the law barely scraped the surface of the actual righteousness required to be sinless against a Holy God. This reveals just how Holy our God is and how unrighteous we are as humans. Only through Christ can we be righteous for He was the only law keeper.

So the moral law is still important and should be followed to the best of our ability, but it will not make us righteous because our righteousness is in Christ alone, and our following of the commandments of God simply show our love for God and our desire to worship him in spirit and in truth.

I hope that sheds light on my point of view...