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The British rule on India

 
 
Reply Sun 21 May, 2006 10:32 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

I dont deny that the idea of having the British Empire was to benefit Britain, but there was an enlightened self interest at work here as well. We introduced railways, telegraph system, civil engineering works and much other "high technology" of its day, so I dont know how you can say we de industrialised the country. In any case India wasnt a country. It was a patchwork of hundreds of little states and cities with hundreds if not thousands of languages. We introduced the English language, which you still find useful, and a sytem of law and jurisprudence which you have adapted. We had at maximum 250,000 "colonialists", it would not be possible to administer 400 million if we had set up the sort of brutal regime you seem to imply. We started drinking tea, you started playing cricket. The most popular meal in Britain is now chicken tikka massala, not fish and chips.

To suggest as you do that we turned India from an industrial power in 1800 into a backward half starved peasant nation is ludicrous.

If nothing else you have to admit that it was only British rule in India


LoveMyFamily wrote:

Steve, I am in a lot of disagreement with your "original post". I don't know if you had much chance of reading the Indian history thoroughly. I am assuming from your post, you did not.

British did some very good things to India. But there is nothing to prove, that if left on it's own, India would not have been able to do it all by itself. India was one of the richest cultures and civilizations until the muslim invaders and british came through. The different states of India came under one umbrella, not because of british but because of the Mauryas and Guptas. You could read some of Pre-Historic and Historic India for validations of these points.

British rule on India has done more harm than good to India, except ofcourse the English language. British not only robbed India of it's natural resources ( did you read about the neel plantation episodes? and many more) but also was instrumental in breaking the mental backbone of Indian citizens.




This discussion was going on in one of the religious threads. I started this so that we could have a discussion here. If we can keep our languange civil(no name callings) we can have a good debate on this issue. Name calling will only lead the discussion nowhere which will defeat the purpose of this thread. There are many Indians and British on this board. It would be good to hear all the view points.
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Steve 41oo
 
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Reply Mon 22 May, 2006 02:58 am
Sorry lmf but I cant participate in a thread where there is so much anger directed at me personally now (not by you but someone else) for things the Brits did in India 2/300 years ago. I'm not prepared to debate with someone who regards Gandhi as a traitor to his country because he did not kill enough English people.
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LoveMyFamily
 
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Reply Mon 22 May, 2006 03:08 am
I understand what you are talking about steve. Hence was my request to keep the debate civil. Everyone has a right to his/her opinion and no one needs to bash the other if the opinions do not match.

Hence, if possible, please re-evaluate your decision and join in for a good debate.
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talk72000
 
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Reply Mon 22 May, 2006 03:33 am
The Mughals, or Moguls, were descendants of Genghis Khan. They also brought about the ancient world's wonder of Taj Mahal. I believe that curry was invented by Noor Jehan. India has benefitted from the Muslims in ways such as beautiful music and songs. Akbar the Great did unify the country as well. Maybe Aurenzeb is the culprit in bringing religious strife. Naturally, Islam and Hinduism are incompatible so there is bound to be a lot strife and and anger.
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LoveMyFamily
 
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Reply Mon 22 May, 2006 11:58 pm
I wish I could get something to quote from the Indian History books, that I have read. But they are all hard prints. Few I have found on the net which I can quote. These are pretty much neutral assessment and closely match my findings in those history books.

Regarding Mughul:
Quote:

Builing of TajMahal:

Shah Jahan's extravagant architectural indulgence had a heavy price. The peasants had been impoverished by heavy taxes and by the time his son Aurangzeb ascended the throne, the empire was in a state of insolvency. As a result, opportunities for grand architectural projects were severely limited. This is most easily seen at the Bibi-ki-Maqbara, the tomb of Aurangzeb's wife, built in 1678. Though the design was inspired by the Taj Mahal, it is half its size, the proportions compressed and the detail clumsily executed.

The Taj Mahal thus symbolizes both Mughal artistic achievement and excessive financial expenditures at a time when resources were shrinking. The economic positions of peasants and artisans did not improve because the administration failed to produce any lasting change in the existing social structure. There was no incentive for the revenue officials, whose concerns were primarily personal or familial gain, to generate resources independent of what was received from the Hindu zamindars and village leaders, who, due to self-interest and local dominance, did not hand over the entirety of the tax revenues to the imperial treasury. In their ever-greater dependence on land revenue, the Mughals unwittingly nurtured forces that eventually led to the break-up of their empire.


The mughul empire also worked towards establishing a religious supremacy in India. They destroyed temples, historical places/universities and palaces as well. I will get you more details on this.

But Akbar, the third of the Mughal emperor did not fall in this category. He had a successful empire. He was a good administrator and was more liberal towards religious bias-ness. He also incorporated some social reforms where he encouraged inter-religious marriages, abolished the sati(burning of widows). The mother of his heir to throne "Jahangir" was a Hindu. He also participated in many hindu festivals.

British rule on India: Some bad points
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India

Quote:
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talk72000
 
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Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 02:15 am
Babar, Humayun, Akbar, Jehangir, Shah Jehan and Aurangzeb. Did I get them right? Just of the top of my head. Who did Dilip Kumar portray In Mughlay Azam, was it Shah Jehan or Jehangir?
vinsan
 
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Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 05:07 am
Quote:
Who did Dilip Kumar portray In Mughlay Azam, was it Shah Jehan or Jehangir?


It was Salim, Son of great Akbar.... And BTW what is this thread discussing actually? Confused
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talk72000
 
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Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 08:17 pm
vinsan, thanks. Historical justification and incrimination are terribly complex issues as there are pros and cons. There has been permanent changes by the presence by the invaders and probably in the blood too as there was much integration as well. One gets angry at the dirty deeds but then there are also benefits one sometimes oversees in the anger. It is heart wrenching, no doubt about it.
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LoveMyFamily
 
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Reply Tue 23 May, 2006 09:46 pm
Salim = Jahangir. Jahangir was Salim's official name once he took over the throne from Akbar. He was the first one to sign the treaty with East India Company, letting them trade in Mughal India for the first time.

Vinsan, I started this thread on opinions on good and bad of British rule on India. I also mentioned the Muslim invaders in my first post and one after the other the discussion went on to Mughals.

Yes, it got a little sidelined, but I wanted to answer talk's query as well. If you have opinions on this thread, please feel free to share.
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LoveMyFamily
 
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Reply Thu 25 May, 2006 01:54 am
British rule on India: Some more bads..
Indigo plantation and west bengal economy
Source: http://www.phmovement.org/pubs/issuepapers/hong03.html

Quote:

To feed the global market economy, new crops mainly for export were introduced in the colonies; new laws and social structures were imposed; new technologies and consumption patterns, which were totally alien, took hold. Subsistence food production gave way to commercial crops and raw materials to feed Europe's industrialisation. Agrarian societies in the colonies were profoundly transformed. Fertile lands were given to grow cash crops with less land to grow food to feed the local population. Food scarcity became a permanent feature and this affected the nutritional and health status of the people.

For example, Bengali peasants under East India Company (EIC) rule in India were forced to grow indigo and kept in extreme poverty as a result of very high land taxes imposed by the Company. Within a few years of Company rule, Bengal's economy was in ruins. Fertile agricultural lands became barren and useless and famine killed some ten million Bengalis. The frequency and severity of famines which occurred under the rule of the EIC, accelerated under direct British rule when food production was increasingly displaced by commodities like jute, dyes, and cotton.

By the second half of the 19th century, India's industry and economy were in complete ruins. India became one huge plantation for the British to grow tea, indigo, and jute for export. Famine became endemic and reached epidemic proportions under British colonial rule. During this period, more than 20 million Indians died from famine.

All told, British exploitation of India, not only pauperized more than 90 percent of the Indian masses, it left behind a weakened population, susceptible to disease and destroyed indigenous coping mechanisms that had been developed over the course of centuries. This story was replayed in many Third World societies under colonial conquest.
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spidergal
 
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Reply Fri 26 May, 2006 12:00 am
I don't think I want to participate in the debate but look forward to what others have to say. And so...BOOKMARK.
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brahmin
 
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Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 10:25 am
talk72000 wrote:
The Mughals, or Moguls, were descendants of Genghis Khan. They also brought about the ancient world's wonder of Taj Mahal. I believe that curry was invented by Noor Jehan. India has benefitted from the Muslims in ways such as beautiful music and songs. Akbar the Great did unify the country as well. Maybe Aurenzeb is the culprit in bringing religious strife. Naturally, Islam and Hinduism are incompatible so there is bound to be a lot strife and and anger.


bollocks !!

babur was related to both chengiz khan and timur lane.

taj mahal was build on the base/foundation of a hindu temple.

"curry invented by noor jahan"... was invented by you.

india beniffited from the muslims in the way jews benifitted from nazis.
the entire gamut of indian classical music is of hindu construct and derives from traditional indian folk music, stretching back to over a couple of thousand years before the birth of i-slam.

akbar was a mass murderer extraordinary. he didnt unify the country, he brought almost the whole country under his cut throat camel jockey rule.

aurangzeb is to muslim rulers in india, what Eichmann was to nazis. a murderer of a degree higher than the rest.

but yes.... hinduism is an indivividualistic/pagan religion whilest islam is a camel jockey death cult. they come from opposite ends of the religious spectrum, in that islam is the most rigidass religion amongst religions that have a founder (zorastrianism, judaism, chriatianity, sikhism etc) while hinduism is the free-est religion amongst all "bell curve" religions, loosely encompassing so many different beliefs and practices that it cant be defined.


next time get ur facts right.
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talk72000
 
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Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 10:45 pm
I find the icon of Kali blood curdling. Anyway, I care for no religions. They are all bogus.
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talk72000
 
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Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 10:46 pm
The point iswouldyoudemolish the Taj?
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brahmin
 
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Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 11:42 pm
talk72000 wrote:
I find the icon of Kali blood curdling.


thats cos you havent a clue about it.
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brahmin
 
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Reply Tue 30 May, 2006 11:44 pm
talk72000 wrote:
The point iswouldyoudemolish the Taj?


no. we are not muslims. or even the ideological twins of muslims- the x-ians.
we arnt in the habit of breaking other's religious places.
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talk72000
 
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Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 10:11 pm
The Taj isn't a religious building. It is a mausoleum for Shah Jehan's beloved.
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talk72000
 
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Reply Wed 31 May, 2006 10:24 pm
Tamerlane is a descendant of Genghis Khan.

Tamerlane
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brahmin
 
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Reply Thu 1 Jun, 2006 01:13 am
talk72000 wrote:
The Taj isn't a religious building. It is a mausoleum for Shah Jehan's beloved.


built on the foundations of a hindu temple.
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talk72000
 
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Reply Fri 23 Jun, 2006 10:29 pm
i just bought the DVD for Taj Mahal with Bina Rai and Pradeep Kumar. Bina Rai is a Madhubala look-alike or even prettier. So it really should be called Mumtaz Mahal. Seems that Shah Jehan and Mumtaz, or Anjuman Banu, were cousins. Seems to be a case of inbreeding that weakened the Mughals in India as much as with the Pharaohs in Egypt.
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