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Fashion: Trivia, Tragedy, or Transcendence?

 
 
dlowan
 
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 08:36 am
I was thinking about fashion today, as I watched a number of my new colleagues tittupping about rather precariously on the currently ultra fashionable stilettos with very, very pointy toes. One of them had a foot covered in bandages from them.


(I might add that these same colleagues are youngish women, and all drop dead gorgeous, and the shoes also look drop dead gorgeous, except for the tittupping effect.)


These are the very same shoes, to look at, that I lusted after in my teeny bopper days (I was not allowed to wear high heels or make up until I was thirteen, but I had a gorgeous red suede pair of tittupers given to me by an older girl, which I smuggled out in my bag when I went out, and nefariously put on with the contraband lippy and eye make up, in which I also tittupped about, well not so much the eye make up did I tittup about in, but I digress. Of course, as soon as I was allowed to wear the damn things, I pretty much lost interest, as one does, but oh the red shoes of my desire!



Anyhoo...this led me to thoughts of fashion.




Now, we all know it is partially an evil plot by capitalism to make us buy stuff, so let's dispose of that topic right now. It's a given, ok? No homilies, if you please!


However, I do not believe such a plot would work so well unless based upon real, bedrock type human desire....


I wouldn't mind betting that cave people had fads for tying their furs in different ways, and legging tie crazes.....



There are fashions (which rotate at almost the same speed at which clothing styles are recycled) in children's games...


So, given it is human desire of some sort, what about it?


On one level, it is sheer trivia, no? Especially when united with kid's cruelty, for instance, about people with the wrong clothes etc.

Or, it can be seen as tragic, an awful frittering away of human effort and thought and resources.


Transcendent? In a way, yes.....here we are, caught twixt cradle and grave, facing fast or slow death, decay, loss of faculties and friends and everything, or scrabbling amidst starvation (LOOK at the saris of the poor in India!) disease and war, and yet many of us do our utmost to bedeck our entropy laden carcases with whatever is desirable or pretty or fashionable....


In an absurdist view of life, it is no more trivial a game to fritter away our time with than philosophy, or religion, or art, or good works....it can be seen as gay courage in the face of annihilation. Or not.

In utilitarian terms, it might be considered a good, since it can give great pleasure, and employs people. Or not.



(Of course, I know someone is going to say that it is the effort of a plumage bereft creature to attract mates.....and that is prolly a part of it, too, lol!)

So, whaddaya think?
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ghostofgauss
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 09:08 am
I think most of it stems from fact that society today has become a "beautocracy." With the prevalence of photographs and television, etc., people started putting more and more emphasis on good looks. If you look at history before photographs, people didn't care how good you looked, they only cared how much money you had or if you had some title of nobility. Any attention to dress was not made to make you look good; it was made to make you look rich.

And if society bases all of its impressions of you on how you look, then it is a worthwhile goal to look fashionable. I think I heard that attractive people on average have higher salaries. I certainly believe it, because people everywhere are generally shallow.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 09:25 am
I've puzzled over this one a lot too, dlowan. I do not believe it is as simple as getting the attention of a mate. I also don't think it's purely a female thing, as it is often cast -- for men, it's more cyclical (i.e. women seem to have always been in the thrall of fashion in modern times, while men have more low-key and more dandyish moments), and men seem to be entering into a dandy phase. Have you seen the HAIR on these boys?? A wonder of mousse and perfectly placed bangs, disordered just so...

I like the idea of an expression of creativity, a sort of communication, to everyone, not just a potential mate. What you see is what you get -- what do you see? This goes for everything is self-presentation, not just the clothes per se. It includes skin (both intrinsic suppleness and the products currently laid upon it), hair (the color, the style, the evidence of expensive products), weight (expensive girdles of yesteryear have been replaced by the expensive flat tummies of gym membership and personal trainers), posture, voice... it goes on and on.

What I think is interesting is a recent democratization of style, though. You find the personal-trainered flat-tummies wearing Old Navy right alongside the bad-haired and bad-skinned burger-flipper. There are still all of these other status signifiers, but they're wearing the very same clothes. Same for H&M, and a few other clothes emporiums that are high on style but low on cash.

Anyway, pretty much anything you choose to wear sends some sort of signal. Sometimes it's a uniform -- khaki capris and a fitted t-shirt with moderately fashionable low-heeled sandals, say. Another kind of uniform is the black pantsuit (in a current cut) with a white shirt and pointy-toed heels. Choosing to put things together outside of the uniform automatically gets more attention, depending on how you do it and how you carry it off. Putting things together over and above the uniform -- a newer look being shown on runways, or (harder to do, harder to carry off), something entirely new that nonetheless feels current and fresh. Or else something that comes across as cut-rate uniform -- not quite the right shoes, not quite the right colors.

Or, where I find myself most of the time these days (I have a visceral dislike of uniforms, though they come in handy), taking bits and pieces of this and that and putting them together in a way that is somewhat original, if not "look at me!!!" original.

More thoughts, but will pause for now...
0 Replies
 
jespah
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 10:03 am
There's definitely a symbolism to it all.

Want to be taken seriously? Wear suits.
Want to attract a hookup? Wear tight clothes.
Want to attract a long-term mate? Wear gender-stereotypical clothes (usually).
Want to be looked at as youthful? Wear what the kids are wearing, but be careful as that can backfire in a big way, by making you look like a wannabe.
Want to be thought of as exotic? Wear clothing that's more at home elsewhere - a dashiki, a head scarf, that kind of thing.

You get the idea. The same person can be taken in different ways, depending upon the style projected, and can really cause a disconnect in people's thinking if they cross the lines. It was weird when I saw my law firm boss in blue jeans one day (we were moving offices). I had always seen him in suits. The onset of casual Fridays is often a revelation, particularly for men. Do they go with the golf look? That's a safe uniform. But what if that's not their thing? Are tee shirts too casual? What about just going tie-less?

Fashion can really clang when it's in the wrong place, wrong time. A friend of mine worked with a woman who was desperately trying to be taken seriously in her field. And this woman (my friend's boss) would wear suits, but with just a camisole underneath, and short skirts. All very peekaboo, all very, look at me, I'm serious but really naughty kind of vibe going on, and T__ was never really taken seriously, despite her education. Almost wanted to take her aside and tell her to change the shorty short skirts for something hitting right around the knee and the camisoles for regular shell tops or oxford shirts and she'd be fine.

A pity, but colleges and grad/business schools never seem to teach this. Why not? Is it seen as too fluffy? But it isn't, really. People get - or don't get - jobs and clients and contracts - and, unfairly as it is, it's often at least in part based upon appearance. So why is something as vital as this being left to chance?
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 10:54 am
Talking about shoes - Have you ever read up on the custom of foot binding?

I had to write a paper on that once, I was literally nauseous while having to type is out.

It was so much worse than I thought it was.....
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 11:08 am
Ooppps
sorry - didn't ready your entire post dlowan

come over and slap my face!
0 Replies
 
Eva
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 02:51 pm
Self-adornment is one of the basic traits that distinguishes humans from animals.













No offense, of course, dear wabbit.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 03:02 pm
sozobe wrote:
I've puzzled over this one a lot too, dlowan. I do not believe it is as simple as getting the attention of a mate. I also don't think it's purely a female thing, as it is often cast -- for men, it's more cyclical (i.e. women seem to have always been in the thrall of fashion in modern times, while men have more low-key and more dandyish moments), and men seem to be entering into a dandy phase. Have you seen the HAIR on these boys?? A wonder of mousse and perfectly placed bangs, disordered just so...

I like the idea of an expression of creativity, a sort of communication, to everyone, not just a potential mate. What you see is what you get -- what do you see? This goes for everything is self-presentation, not just the clothes per se. It includes skin (both intrinsic suppleness and the products currently laid upon it), hair (the color, the style, the evidence of expensive products), weight (expensive girdles of yesteryear have been replaced by the expensive flat tummies of gym membership and personal trainers), posture, voice... it goes on and on.

What I think is interesting is a recent democratization of style, though. You find the personal-trainered flat-tummies wearing Old Navy right alongside the bad-haired and bad-skinned burger-flipper. There are still all of these other status signifiers, but they're wearing the very same clothes. Same for H&M, and a few other clothes emporiums that are high on style but low on cash.

Anyway, pretty much anything you choose to wear sends some sort of signal. Sometimes it's a uniform -- khaki capris and a fitted t-shirt with moderately fashionable low-heeled sandals, say. Another kind of uniform is the black pantsuit (in a current cut) with a white shirt and pointy-toed heels. Choosing to put things together outside of the uniform automatically gets more attention, depending on how you do it and how you carry it off. Putting things together over and above the uniform -- a newer look being shown on runways, or (harder to do, harder to carry off), something entirely new that nonetheless feels current and fresh. Or else something that comes across as cut-rate uniform -- not quite the right shoes, not quite the right colors.

Or, where I find myself most of the time these days (I have a visceral dislike of uniforms, though they come in handy), taking bits and pieces of this and that and putting them together in a way that is somewhat original, if not "look at me!!!" original.

More thoughts, but will pause for now...



Oh, indeed, I think it a very human thing!!!! If men be not pomading and tittupping (I wonder WHY and exactly WHEN drab males became the thing?) themselves, they have cars and gadgets and such. Or, indeed, and always, HAIR.

Long, short, on the face, off the face, wigged, powdered, puffed up with curls or hot air and goo (I can talk, I am a mussed and spiked and disarranged just so, only my hair won't go just so), here, dyed in streaks or the spiky ends, or in lots of little streakettes throughout the hair.

Then their ties....look at how ties and the cut of suits dates films.....

And not just clothes, look at how furniture changes, paint colours, carpet lengths etc..


Yes, there is a great element of theatre in the choice, plus the what suits you, if you have any brains at all (and you can find it).

Tragic? Stubby, graceless, Aussie boys dressed in sad imitations of American black ghetto style.....


Mind you, fashion tragics are generally those, I think, with the least confidence in themselves and such. I haven't seen poised and assured boys looking tragic in wannabe gangsta stuff, nor fatter girls with self esteem with their protuberant striaed bellies flopping out of the current low jeans and high tops, as so many of their sisters have...they find stuff which suits them. Mind you, is there an odd daffy courage in sticking to a fashion which makes you look just plain awful...not Gothic or angry or defiant or arty awful, just sad, limp biscuit, suburban awful.



Heehee, it can be fun deliberately defying the uniform.


I noticed once, when I had condemned myself to being on a management committee full of rude separatist lesbians, becoming more and more defiantly Not Lesbian and Boring and Mainstream as their rudeness and condescension (I was straight and from a mainstream agency) annoyed me more.

On the day I found myself wearing pearls and a little dress I decided enough was enough.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 03:06 pm
jespah wrote:
There's definitely a symbolism to it all.

Want to be taken seriously? Wear suits.
Want to attract a hookup? Wear tight clothes.
Want to attract a long-term mate? Wear gender-stereotypical clothes (usually).
Want to be looked at as youthful? Wear what the kids are wearing, but be careful as that can backfire in a big way, by making you look like a wannabe.
Want to be thought of as exotic? Wear clothing that's more at home elsewhere - a dashiki, a head scarf, that kind of thing.

You get the idea. The same person can be taken in different ways, depending upon the style projected, and can really cause a disconnect in people's thinking if they cross the lines. It was weird when I saw my law firm boss in blue jeans one day (we were moving offices). I had always seen him in suits. The onset of casual Fridays is often a revelation, particularly for men. Do they go with the golf look? That's a safe uniform. But what if that's not their thing? Are tee shirts too casual? What about just going tie-less?

Fashion can really clang when it's in the wrong place, wrong time. A friend of mine worked with a woman who was desperately trying to be taken seriously in her field. And this woman (my friend's boss) would wear suits, but with just a camisole underneath, and short skirts. All very peekaboo, all very, look at me, I'm serious but really naughty kind of vibe going on, and T__ was never really taken seriously, despite her education. Almost wanted to take her aside and tell her to change the shorty short skirts for something hitting right around the knee and the camisoles for regular shell tops or oxford shirts and she'd be fine.

A pity, but colleges and grad/business schools never seem to teach this. Why not? Is it seen as too fluffy? But it isn't, really. People get - or don't get - jobs and clients and contracts - and, unfairly as it is, it's often at least in part based upon appearance. So why is something as vital as this being left to chance?




Hhhhhhh, indeed, so, how did all this this come to be, I wonder?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 03:07 pm
ghostofgauss wrote:
I think most of it stems from fact that society today has become a "beautocracy." With the prevalence of photographs and television, etc., people started putting more and more emphasis on good looks. If you look at history before photographs, people didn't care how good you looked, they only cared how much money you had or if you had some title of nobility. Any attention to dress was not made to make you look good; it was made to make you look rich.

And if society bases all of its impressions of you on how you look, then it is a worthwhile goal to look fashionable. I think I heard that attractive people on average have higher salaries. I certainly believe it, because people everywhere are generally shallow.



I think you will find all of this well predates photography.
0 Replies
 
BorisKitten
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 04:06 pm
What an interesting discussion, esp since today, for some bizarre reason, I received a copy of the Lerner's catalog.

It was a bit shocking for me. I shopped at this store, home of the very-cheap working-woman's suit, around 25 years ago. Part of the shock was seeing how very 1960's these fashions appear to me.

On the front cover, there's a fake snakeskin metallic suede blazer & skirt which makes me wonder.. where are you going to go in that get-up? Er, to work? With the 3-inch-heel silver and black pumps that go with it?

What about the Abominable Snowman boots; or the pumps with fake fur straps; or what seems to be a sweatsuit with fur trim; or the skin-tight leather slacks with a "tummy panel" built-in?

I have to ask myself what, exactly, these fashions say about today's young women.... and perhaps they say nothing at all, really, that's any different from what fashion "said" at any other time. That is, I suppose, "I'm in style; I look good; I'm sexy."

I realize I thought, foolishly, that younger women would be more.... serious, perhaps. More eager to be taken seriously?

Aspiring to US or even corporate presidency seems to preclude fur-trimmed high heels, but maybe that's just in MY mind, and says more about ME than THEM.

This reminds me of the Executive Director of the womens' shelter where I worked. In her 30's, she wore fantastically high heels; push-up bras with so much cleavage showing I feared I'd see a brown spot at any moment; and skirts so short that she could neither walk nor sit properly. Needless to say, lots of make-up and very large blonde hair.

I thought her dress was entirely inappropriate for someone fiscally responsible for a shelter which housed female victims of domestic violence. To me, she looked like a sexual object, and Nothing More, regardless of what she said.

But again, is this just me? Are other people today completely unfazed by such apparent contradictions?

I did not wear clothing, in the corporate world, that suggested I was out for sex.... because I WASN'T out for sex. Sure, at night, in a bar, I'd dress like a sexual object, because that's how I wanted to be seen.

I find myself trying to imagine a male corporate executive wearing a large codpiece, skin-tight hose, perhaps a small cut-out onto his actual butt, a skin-tight top with perhaps inserts for pecs and biceps, large shoulder pads, lots of lace at cuffs and collar, and teetering high-heels to accentuate his height... speaking to me seriously about how to run said corporation.

Would I listen to him? Heck no, I'd be too busy LOOKING. Why should we, as women, expect any OTHER sort of behavior from men?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Oct, 2005 03:41 am
Hmmm....???????



Taking men seriously in pads and furbelows?


Never!



http://mywebpages.comcast.net/rocksteady25/images/cd-dandies.jpg


http://www.creamofcards.com/c87.jpg


http://www.bohemiabooks.com.au/eblinks/spirboho/general/dandy/dandy2.jpg


COSTUMES




MORE COSTUMES



http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/images/patterns/pp58-env.gif




http://www.longago.com/wamsundhosencover.gif


http://www.longago.com/waffenrokcover.gif



http://www.longago.com/kilcommoncover2.gif


http://www.costumes.org/history/racinet/racinet14thcent1.jpg




http://www.springfield.k12.il.us/schools/springfield/eliz/images2/FashMen1.jpeg


http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/cloth/hood2.gif


http://users.iafrica.com/m/me/melisant/costume/images/men2.jpg













Now, why has modern fashion tended to decree that men should be in a form of purdah?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Oct, 2005 06:32 am
Hear this bunny wagtail

Quote:
. In addition quoting a long post in its entirety to respond to one sentence should be avoided if possible. Try to just quote the relevant sentence.
.

It is is request by Craven in Announcements.
0 Replies
 
Piffka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Oct, 2005 08:03 am
Hmmm, I've always liked the look of those starry stockings.

This is an interesting question. We do, after all, have to get dressed every day and it does get boring. Hence, the purchase of more and more, I think.

For me, the first thing is utility... I want to be reasonably covered and comfortable whether the weather is cold or hot.

The next priority is whether or not the preferred garment is clean. Therefore, an easily laundered object is favored. I always remember with a laugh a friend who declared that his clothing label said "Do Not Wash, Do Not Dry-Clean, Just Do Not Get Dirty."

Then color. Nearly everyone can express themselves with a special color or even a non-color. It seems to mean so much to us, culture by culture.

Luckily, I no longer work so I don't have to impress anyone with the quickness of my mind via the length and breadth of my lapel. I do however, occasionally want to impress with my wit and wallet.... What to do, what to do?

My preference is to look sensible and classy (whatever that means) yet be able to walk if not run or jump and sit at will, stand without adjustment and, for myself, be comfortable. I favor knits and velvet but adore zippers and flared legs.

Regarding tall pointed shoes: Who doesn't admire them from afar? Lord knows, I have many tall shoes but few that are also pointed. I surely understand the need for shoes that I can wear to the ballet and other events of similar peacock preening, but since I do need to walk from the parking lot, across the street and up the steps without mishap, I have frequently put on those gorgeous "****-me" shoes which, yes, I own, and then taken them off for something slightly more suitable and less likely to break my ankle. Apparently, we need escorts when we wear such and I go to the ballet with another woman.

Being of an age beyond the mid-thirties, I have clothes from a few different decades and note that vintage becomes just another name for old friend.

I seriously doubt that my "fashion" can hardly be graced with such a name. I was in the local Nordstrom's t'other day and was disappointed in nearly everything I saw. How did they get to be the fashion mavens? They have terrible taste! Good God, there were shiny bangles on practically everything, strange colors and weird prints. I went in looking for a plain, solid-colored teal top to wear under a new teal-colored dressy jacket. Not one... no, not one item could be found that would be suitable. It was either the wrong material, wrong color, be-dangled, be-printed or strangely cut. Finally, I bought my lingerie laundry soap and left. Still reeling with the shock... what the heck??
0 Replies
 
BorisKitten
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Oct, 2005 10:25 am
Actually, I love men when they're dressed up to be sexy... always felt a sort of happy longing seeing their fantastical outfits of the past. I wish I knew why they stopped wearing clothing like this.

Ha, perhaps they wanted to be taken seriously?

I think fashion has been with us since we could call ourselves Human, and I imagine it's because we are such visual creatures. We want to be able to tell things about people at a distance, without saying anything.

Thus I imagine very early fashion indicated important things about the wearer... marital status, family, tribe, and of course gender.

I enjoy fashion and think it will always be a part of us. It's just plain fun.

I guess my rant was more about women who dress like sexual objects and expect to be taken as something Other than sexual objects. Ms. Executive Director was such a striking example.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Oct, 2005 03:26 pm
Hmmm...rise of the middle class with puritan sobriety and such?

Those out there men's fashions are largely aristocratic.



Still, why did they consent to become so drab?


Lol, to go with the purdah example, like women in veils, they must express their sexiness through tiny hints.... a tie, a watch.....


They have a little more freedom now, but look what they eschewed! This is fashion's tyranny!


"I would just like to say that it is my conviction
That longer hair and other flamboyant affectations
Of appearance are nothing more
Than the male's emergence from his drab camoflage
Into the gaudy plumage
Which is the birthright of his sex

There is a peculiar notion that elegant plumage
And fine feathers are not proper for the male
When ac---tually
That is the way things are
In most species"


And it is, indeed, the way things are in most species
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