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The New Orleans levee system: hurricanes & terrorism

 
 
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 08:54 am
An important thing I've learned from the hurricane and the failure of the levees in New Orleans.

If the political idiots decide to restore New Orleans exactly as it was, including the levee system and maintaining the diversion of the Mississippi River, they are inviting the terrorists to wait until all the expensive restoration work is done and then all they have to do is blow up the levees and the whole thing happens all over again.

Major stupidity.

BBB
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 1,295 • Replies: 21
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Region Philbis
 
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Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 09:24 am
interesting... i wonder what the odds are of another Cat-4 hitting the area?
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roger
 
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Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:33 am
I'm going out on a limb here, Region, but whatever the odds, I would say they are getting better all the time. Increasingly strong storms, and increasingly unpredictable weather is supposed to be one of the consequences of global warming, which is becoming more plausible all the time.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:36 am
Roger
roger wrote:
I'm going out on a limb here, Region, but whatever the odds, I would say they are getting better all the time. Increasingly strong storms, and increasingly unpredictable weather is supposed to be one of the consequences of global warming, which is becoming more plausible all the time.


True, Roger, but the arguing is over whether the global warming is a natural process on the earth over millions or years, or is it cause by human being generated causes.

I think it's probably all of the above. Like a perfect storm. Both events coming together at the same time.

BBB
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:43 am
No, the argument is whether New Orleans should be restored exactly as it was. You mention the possibility of terrorism; Region mentions the possibility of a similar storm in the future. The question should be "Should cities be built below the level of adjacent rivers, lakes, and oceans?"
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:44 am
Certainly any restoration should include a levee system that takes Cat-5 and 6 storms into consideration. Not all of the flooding is due to a weak seawall, of course. The Big Easy suffers also from its proximity to Lake Ponchartrain, a large but shallow expanse of water. Any plan that ignores this is doomed to failure.

As for BBB's original question, any future plans should also include increased harbor security measures.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:46 am
Roger
roger wrote:
No, the argument is whether New Orleans should be restored exactly as it was. You mention the possibility of terrorism; Region mentions the possibility of a similar storm in the future. The question should be "Should cities be built below the level of adjacent rivers, lakes, and oceans?"


Roger, Oh, now I understand your post.

Of course, you are right. I've asked Asherman and Setanta to repost some of their posts on other threads to this thread because I think it is an important topic. I also hope Farmerman will add his geological knowledge as well.

BBB
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 10:49 am
I will read almost anything the farmerman has to write, on just about anything. If he can't change my mind, he can often raise doubts.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 11:21 am
I've written this in several threads now, but in response of Aunt Bee's request, i'll rehearse it here.

http://louisiana.sierraclub.org/atcha_map.jpg

Note the highlighted area in the map above which refers to the Atchafalaya basin. This was once the course of the Mississippi River. Several hundred years ago--in one thread i mistakenly wrote 17th century, but i believe it may have been the 16th century, and i may be wrong about that, it's twenty years since i researched this--a huge log jam formed from a giant deadfall of trees. This could have been from another hurricane. At any event, it blocked the course of the river, and the Mississippi entered the bed it now occupies, more or less. However, the Atchafalaya basin is where the river "wants" to run. In the 19th century, Henry Shreve invented a means of removing snags from the rivers, particularly the Mississippi, and he was given a commission in the Army, and took charge of the Corps of Engineers Mississippi navigation project. He started on the Red River in Louisiana, and also cleared a path for the Atchafalaya River. Baton Rouge and New Orleans were both well-established towns by then, and of course, an object of the project was to improve navigation for those towns. No one gave much thought to the course of the Mississippi, however.

When d'Iberville established a settlement on Lake Pontchartrain in 1699, and his brother de Bienville established New Orleans in 1718, occassional flooding was not a problem, both because they could afford to ignore the water in low-lying areas, and because the volume of water in the river was not as great. Most could quickly drain off into Lake Pontchartrain (named for Louis XIV's Navy Minister at the time of the settlements). Subsequently, however, the building of levees on the Mississippi and its tributary rivers has dramatically increased the volume of water in the current bed. When Shreve cleard a portion of the log-jam in the Atchafalaya, centuries of silting assured that the water flowed into the Mississippi, rather than the reverse. But steady action by the Mississippi, combined with the increase of the volume of water, began to erode the bed of the Atchafalaya basin, and the Mississippi was poised to re-enter its old bed. The Atchafalaya is growing, it now has absorbed the outflow of the Red River. In 1963, the Corps built the Old River Control Structure to keep the Mississippi out of the Atchafalaya basin (referred to by hydraulic geologists as the Old River). This is an array of structures about fifty miles northwest of Baton Rouge. It requires constant, expensive maintenance, as the greater flow of the Mississippi constantly undercuts the structures. But the Corps has had a mandate from Congress to maintain the status quo, as there is now a huge corridor of refineries and chemical plants (using refinery output) between Baton Rouge and New Orleans. Sea-going tankers can pull up to the shore near Lake Pontchartrain (separated from the sea by a narrow strip of land), empty their holds into "tank farms," from which river barges can fill, and take the canals through New Oleans--chiefly the 17th Street canal, which was the site of the major, catastropic collapse of the levee in the current disaster--and then head into the river for the short trip up to the corridor and the refineries.

Therefore, the sensible thing to do would seem to be to blow up the Old River Control Structure, and let the Father of Waters go where he list. However, not only is there a human political factor promoting the status quo, there is a large corporate lobby who will want a return to the status quo ante.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 11:24 am
Set
Thanks, Set, for this valuable information.

BBB
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barefootTia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 11:29 am
Thanks for the historic info Setanta
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 11:37 am
Set- Very interesting. What you have written certainly fleshes out our understanding of the situation. Thanks! Very Happy
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 11:41 am
More information on the Old River Control Structure.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 11:43 am
And, another point of view:

Quote:
Can they do it? Can the Corps keep the hands of the geologic clock from striking the final hour. The experts are all betting against them, but the experts are all focused on the geologic clock. What possible chance have we to deny nature. Are we going to cork a volcano, suture an earthquake fault, direct a hurricane or tell the Mississippi to please take the next right. Ask a Corps engineer and you're liable to get a wry smile and a, "who knows?" They're focused on the human clock. "We held it today and we'll hold it tomorrow." It's been thirty seven years they've held it now--thirty seven very human years--nearly half a lifetime [the article was written in 2000, 37 years after the building of the ORCS]. That's an achievement by any human measure and during that time we've benefitted from their efforts. Tomorrow I expect they will hold the Mississippi at Old River yet another day. Let the geologic clock tick if it must; I measure time by a different standard.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 11:50 am
Another informative site about the lower river's history
Another informative site about the lower river's history---with pictures.

http://www.mvn.usace.army.mil/prj/hist_arch/baton_rouge/baton_rouge.pdf
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CowDoc
 
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Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 03:04 pm
Setanta is dead one, but there's considerable more to the story. One of the huge concerns in southern Louisiana deals not only with New Orleans, but with the coastal wetlands that have been rapidly disappearing since the building of the levee system after the 1927 floods. As the river has been kept mostly within its banks, the lack of sediment deposit coupled with the geologic settling of the ground and the gradual rising of the ocean level has dramatically reduced what used to be wet farmland, which has now become part of the Gulf of Mexico. We're not talking about a few hundred acres, but hundreds of square miles. The worst news is that roughly six thousand miles of oil pipeline runs under these former wetlands, and much of it is not engineered to withstand salt water. Since a third of our domestic oil supply enters the country through Port Fourchon and the Louisiana Offshore Oil Port, the true terrorist threat is not the New Orleans levee system, but the oil pipelines from the Gulf. I assure you that the Louisiana National Guard is acutely aware of this situation. When I discussed the possibility of holding the Mississippi from flowing down the Atchafalaya with an engineer from LSU, he felt certain that the structure could hold for at least a century, but would eventually fail. The question is not whether we should keep the Mississippi in its current bed, but how long we should try to do so. It's not an easy question, because there are a whole lot of factors to consider. New Orleans is actually a minor point. The change of the river's course will affect the entire country dramatically, either directly or indirectly. It makes for damned good food for thought.
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CowDoc
 
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Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 03:05 pm
Sorry for the typo, Setanta - you're dead ON, not dead ONE!
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 03:08 pm
cow doc
CowDoc wrote:
Sorry for the typo, Setanta - you're dead ON, not dead ONE!


He's that too, not called that for the first time - but he forgives easily.

Thanks for the info. I think this issue is the most important ones related to the recovery. This has to a top priority debate at the state and federal level of all states because we are all affected.

Should we pour more money after bad for a short term fix? Or should we bite the bullet and triple the national debt and spend the money to fix the problem intelligently for the long term solution? I vote for the latter.

BBB
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Noddy24
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 03:09 pm
CowDoc--

You know you can edit your own posts?

Just press the "Edit" button on the upper right side of the box around your faulty post. Dignity is wonderful.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2005 03:23 pm
roger wrote:
"Should cities be built below the level of adjacent rivers, lakes, and oceans?"


You probably know that a quarter of the Netherlands' land area lies below sea level?
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