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How we patronise the Iraqi people

 
 
frolic
 
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 10:40 am
Iraq indeed turns out to be a faraway country of which we know little. Its people have failed to perform the role allotted to them by Washington and London. No doubt their initial reaction to the invasion can be at least partly explained by fear that Saddam Hussein's regime may yet survive, and that the Americans and British, as in 1991, will lose their nerve and leave them to face the dictator's vengeance again. No doubt also, in the coming days and weeks, western troops will sometimes meet cheering crowds, bearing garlands of flowers, if only because some Iraqis will be happy to be relieved of hunger and thirst and children will smile at anybody handing out sweets.

But why do we assume that Iraqi public opinion is a fixed and immutable thing, anxiously awaiting western "liberation" and hanging on Tony Blair's every word? It is likely to be just as volatile as opinion in Britain, where support for war has surged from 38 per cent to 54 per cent in a week, and where even a prominent minister can't make her mind up. With troops now at the battlefront, many previously anti-war Britons have rallied to the flag; and, all along, some people here and in America have supported the Bush administration in this particular enterprise, although they detest almost everything else it does and regard some of its neoconservative members as dangerously unhinged. By the same token, it was always likely that a large number of Iraqis would swallow their hatred of Saddam and resist a foreign invasion, at least initially. Yet despite reliable reports from, for example, Jordan and Syria, that exiles are returning to defend their homeland, we shall be told that failure to embrace the liberators is evidence of fear among the population or that it betrays some kind of false consciousness.

Hatred of tyranny against hatred of foreign invasion; patriotism against liberty; the safety of your family against the safety of your conscience - the British and Americans have rarely had to make such profound choices. Yet they arrogantly presumed to know how the Iraqis would choose. The chattering classes of Islington and Georgetown, the liberal scribblers of the Observer and Vanity Fair, were quite confident that they had gauged the mood of the Iraqi people: liberation by us was what the Iraqis wanted, and they wouldn't mind a few bombs, missiles and mortars and were quite prepared to sacrifice husbands, wives, parents and children. Those who disagreed were accused of patronising the inhabitants of a third world country. But it is the supporters of war who do the patronising. Perhaps we shall one day allow Iraqis and other third world peoples to make their own political weather and (where it is explicitly requested) offer a helping hand to their home-grown uprisings.

Some of those who support the war argue that the intervention is not wrong, merely the execution. For example, the commentator Michael Gove helpfully explains in the Times that military effectiveness is being subordinated to political correctness. Neatly shifting the blame for anything that goes wrong to the anti-war movement, he argues that, to satisfy its sensibilities, the US and Britain are trying too hard to avoid disruption to Baghdad and are spending too much time and energy on attempts to secure humanitarian supplies. In the US, too, some commentators point out that it is not much use sparing civilians in air raids if the alternative is urban street fighting in which casualties and disruption to civilian life may well be greater. All this may be true, but it simply demonstrates how the war was misconceived from the start. A humanitarian war is a contradiction in terms, and the sooner the concept is decently buried, the better. Mr Blair's endeavour to turn an idea dreamt up by Republican hawks into a sort of VSO scheme was foolish and self-deluding; far better to have accepted it solely as a defence and possibly extension of US power (partly prompted by post-11 September fear), and to have let the world judge it as such.

The longer the war goes on, the less humanitarian it will seem. Yet, paradoxically, the longer it goes on, the weaker the argument for stopping it. The prospect of Saddam as an Arab hero, celebrated as a conqueror of infidels, hardly bears thinking about. If he were to survive, the repression of Iraqis who did support western invasion - or who did not oppose it enough - would be savage. In other words, Britain and America, in trying to weaken the monster, have made him potentially more dangerous, both to his own people and to the rest of the world. This is the quagmire into which President Bush and Mr Blair have led us.

Politicians and modish commentators in western countries are poor judges of what third world people want, which is mostly peace, security, food and water. Yes, they will want to keep out of torture chambers, but in countries ruled by tyrants, large sections of the population become skilled at keeping out of trouble; it is harder to dodge a cruise missile. In Iraq and elsewhere, all we can safely assume is that public opinion would like us not to sell military or police equipment to unelected rulers and their henchmen, not to make deals with dictators even when it suits us to do so, and not to impose sanctions that lead to disease and starvation among millions of children. If British and American (and, for that matter, French and Russian) governments were to follow these rules consistently, people could do more to overthrow their own rulers, where they deem it necessary, without violent outside intervention. Western countries themselves would then be safer from external threat and, if they ever wanted to fight a "war for liberty", they might have the moral legitimacy to do so. In the meantime, let them conduct themselves more modestly lest they be accused of barbarism and murder.

The New Statesman= Bulls eye again.
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 10:49 am
Quote:
their initial reaction to the invasion can be at least partly explained by fear that Saddam Hussein's regime may yet survive, and that the Americans and British, as in 1991, will lose their nerve


BULLOCKS!

More revisionist claptrap!
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 11:32 am
maxsdadeo wrote:
Quote:
their initial reaction to the invasion can be at least partly explained by fear that Saddam Hussein's regime may yet survive, and that the Americans and British, as in 1991, will lose their nerve


BULLOCKS!

More revisionist claptrap!


I think that is a main element. But its not the only one. And time will tell how the other elements influence the behaviour of the Iraqi. The Ayatollah, the religious leaders of the Shia, have not forgotten how the US treated Ayatollah Khomeini. And they have a massive influence on the population.
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 12:47 pm
Let me clarify.

I DO think that the Iraqi people are hesitant to assist in the overthrow of Saddam until it is clear he is finished.

I DON'T think that characterizing the US as "losing it's nerve" is accurate.
Our nerve had nothing to do with our leaving Saddam in power. We had accomplished our objective, keeping the people of Kuwait free and out from underneath the tyranny of Saddam Hussein.

Period.
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 01:26 pm
max - I think your assumption is based on the same kind of information that the Washington hawks have been using, and so much of it is wishful thinking. So far, nothing in this war is taking the path preocribed for it. It seems the Iraqis are willing to fight for their own land, and don't want foreigners taking it over, and this may be much stronger than your assumption that they are all scared and waiting for proof that Saddam is finished. That was the thinking of the Washington Hawks, who based their intelligence information on the Iraqi National Congress. And that was the group made up of Iraqi ex-patriates who, it turned out, knew very little about what was actually happening. As a matter of fact, the one who was picked for the Iraqi interim leadership by the Bush people seems to have disappeared. Nobody knows where he is, and there is no suspicion of foul play.

The scenario for this was written by the PNAC twelve years ago, by the same people now in charge (with the notable written exception of Bush senior), and has been urged constantly. Rumsfeld is taking the same position he did back then, and more and more he's being proven wrong. And more and more the justification for Bush's war (and that's how it's becoming known) is losing ground. First it was war on terrorism (that was the elusive binLaden), then the ridding of the WMD (and that turned out to have its peculiar side), then the regime change (all the Iraqis hate Saddam and will lay down their arms and greet us with flowers), now it's just plain old war with Iraq and on towards the oil fields.

Why would the Iraqis trust us and want us there? We'll win, by brute force, but is that a win?
0 Replies
 
maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 01:30 pm
mama: One rarely begins a war to win a popularity contest.

To allow the people of Iraq to reap the benefits of their oil, (look to the south in Kuwait for an excellent model) is a victory.

That is what we are fighting for, to free the people of Iraq from the iron fist of Saddam.

You call it jingoistic propaganda, I call it a mission statement.
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mamajuana
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 01:46 pm
Call it whatever you want to, max, it doesn't change a basic situation. How will the Iraqis reap the benefit of their oil, beyond what's already happening, if we're there to control it (having fended off or worked deals with BP and all the rest?)

And Kuwait is not where to look. Afghanistan is. What a success story that is!
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 01:55 pm
Because there will no longer be a Saddam, who keeps all of the profits for himself and a chosen few.

You may say that the US is fighting to control the oil, let's just see what happens, ok?

If you are in fact correct then shame on me.

If I am correct, however, then I guess you (and countless others around these parts) have wrung your hands needlessly.
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 04:41 pm
And are you so naïve the common Iraqi will profit from it?
Better learn some elite-theory. There is some scientific research on that. Even after the Nazi regime the economic elite survived to some extend. So we'll see how the Iraqi elite manage to survive in a post Iraq environment. I still wonder who will judge the Iraqi leaders? I hope the US wont be so stupid to use US judges.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 05:25 pm
Be more optimistic, frolic. You are a pessimist on Iraq. Pessimism can't win.
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 05:44 pm
Optimism cant win either. And i dont see myself as an pessimist. More a realist(not in the international theory-way). When has a country even done something that was't in their own interest? Do you really belief that this is a liberation operation? Time will tell.
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satt fs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 05:50 pm
Historians will debate 50 years later.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 05:56 pm
Heard on NPR this morning a report about a man in Basri whose father was killed in 1991 when he came out and backup the Americans and how there were a number dead in the city now - his trust is lacking! Has nothing to do with reality but with preception!
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frolic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 06:03 pm
reality is perception. constructions of reality rather than reality as such.
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maxsdadeo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Mar, 2003 06:04 pm
regarding optimism/pessimism let me say this.

If you assume the worst, you are never disappointed, I will grant you "Imperialistic Oil Grab!!" people that.

I will continue to dissuade myself from falling into that trap.
http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/emoticons/teeter.gif
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