If you like your Covid-19 vaccine, thank a big corporation.

@Brandon9000,

Socialism, in the sense where it is contrasted with the capitalism of the US—where institutions such as universal health care are considered socialist, and socialist institutions such as public education are questioned—works in countries such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland.

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@InfraBlue,

Interesting.

Norway, finland, Sweden, denmark, and Iceland are all receiving covid vaccines from Big international corporations.

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@maxdancona,

I do not want to bring back serfs.

I provided examples of socioeconomic systems that have worked and presently work. In terms of being "good" that's a judgement call. For the purposes for which they served, an argument can be made that they were "good" in that, for centuries, they worked.

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@maxdancona,

Ok. That doesn't negate the fact that their socioeconomic systems work.

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In the same way that Western complacency was shocked by the launch of the Sputnik in the1950s the Sputnik vaccine has done the same thing.

Initially mocked by the West countries are now lining up to get hold of it, it seems pretty effective.

The NHS was instrumental in getting theAstra Zeneca vaccine out there too.

Profit driven healthcare only serves the wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Antibiotics are a case in point, there’s no money in them. If a new one is created it will only be used as a last resort, there’s no money in that.

If Malaria affected rich Western countries it would have been cured years ago.

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@izzythepush,

The scientific criticism of Russia's Sputnik V vaccine is that they cut corners of safety and testing. While the western nations went through several levels of trials before deciding it was safe, Russia just jumped over these steps and started injecting it into people widespread.

Yes, it turns out Russia's vaccine works. No one (including the Russian scientists) was sure that it would work safely until they looked back after the fact and confirmed that people weren't dying.

The question is whether taking these short cuts for a political win was worth the risk. If a corporation in a Western democracy had cut corners like this, the press and activists would have objected.

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@maxdancona,

1. I don't have a problem with the existence of big corporation.

2. But, I do have a problem with big corporations not paying their fair share in taxes.

3. But, I do have a problem with big corporation polluting and destroying the planet.

4. But, I do have a problem with big corporation's predatory business practices.

5. But, I do have a problem with big corporations unfair labor practices.

6. But, I do have a problem with big corporations resistance to organize labor and labor unions.

7. But, I do have a problem with big corporations resistance to consumer protection entities and consumer protection laws.

8. So, let me reiterate. I don't have a problem with the actual existence of big corporations.

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@Real Music,

1. I am glad you don't have an issue with the existance of big corporations.

2. There are small businesses that pullute, destroy the planet, underpay employees, resist organized labor and violate consumer protection laws.

Does the size of the business matter?

Let's take a hypothetical (which is not that hypothetical) and imagine an industry were big corporations are more efficient than small businesses. In this case, the big corporations would produce less pollution and may even provide better salaries.

In that case I assume you would choose the big corporation over the small business.

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@maxdancona,

Quote:

Does the size of the business matter?

Not particularly.

Quote:

Let's take a hypothetical (which is not that hypothetical) and imagine an industry were big corporations are more efficient than small businesses. In this case, the big corporations would produce less pollution and may even provide better salaries.

In that case I assume you would choose the big corporation over the small business.

1. I don't necessarily have an issue with the size of the business or corporation.

2. But, I do have an issue with big corporation squeezing out smaller businesses who cannot compete with the monopoly and resources of the big corporations.

3. Smaller businesses often serve the community in ways that big corporations cannot or will not choose to do.

4. Often smaller businesses have a unique value to the community that it serves.

5. The value of a smaller business does not necessarily have to be an economical or monetary value.

6. Value to the community is not always about money and greed.

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@Real Music,

I agree with you that small businesses are good for communities. There are several that I made a special point to support during the pandemic because I wanted them to make it through.

However, sometimes big corporations should squeeze out small business. Sometimes small business is better. In other fields, big corporations are better. This is not a simple issue.

In Boston we have big corporations who provide intercity buses. You have heard of these companies including "Greyhound" and "Peter Pan". We also have small local businesses who run bus routes. They make the news when a bus catches on fire or a wheel falls off while driving to New York (yes this happened).

There is no way in hell you will see me using a small business to take a bus to New York. It isn't going to happen because I know I can trust Greyhound (as a big corporation) to maintain their equipment. Honestly in this industry I am pretty sure the employees are paid better when they work for the big corporations.

I support my local bookstore. I buy socks from Amazon. Go figure.

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@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Socialism, in the sense where it is contrasted with the capitalism of the US—where institutions such as universal health care are considered socialist, and socialist institutions such as public education are questioned—works in countries such as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, and Iceland.

Nonsense. Socialism means that the government owns the means of production.

1 Reply

@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

Socialism means that the government owns the means of production.

That's how 17% of Americans define it (Gallup)

However, since 1864 there have been two different varieties of socialism - and various other varieties are now in between.
What they all have in common is a political worldview that aims to create a society of solidarity in which the fundamental values of freedom and equality are realised.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Socialism means that the government owns the means of production.
That's how 17% of Americans define it (Gallup)

However, since 1864 there have been two different varieties of socialism - and various other varieties are now in between.
What they all have in common is a political worldview that aims to create a society of solidarity in which the fundamental values of freedom and equality are realised.

Sure, the world is filled with people who don't know what they're talking about. From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

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@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

Sure, the world is filled with people who don't know what they're talking about.

I didn't know that the Marriam-Webster is a political science handbook.

Since you,as opposed to me, know what you are talking about: what does m-w say about different theses by the First and Second Internationals, the Labour and Socialist International, and the Socialist International? And what do you say about it?

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Sure, the world is filled with people who don't know what they're talking about.
I didn't know that the Marriam-Webster is a political science handbook.

Since you,as opposed to me, know what you are talking about: what does m-w say about different theses by the First and Second Internationals, the Labour and Socialist International, and the Socialist International? And what do you say about it?

And I could ask you a thousand questions about physics and math that you don't know the answer to. However, the definition I have given is the one I was taught in school and it's backed up by one of the most prestigious American dictionaries. The dictionary doesn't need to be a political science handbook to define a word. If socialism means "freedom and equality," then capitalism means "rainbows and flowers."

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Arguing over the definition of words is silly.

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@Brandon9000,

I'm quite happy that my party doesn't follow you definition since 158 years.

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'm quite happy that my party doesn't follow you definition since 158 years.

If socialism means sunshine and puppies, then it doesn't mean anything. Give me an example of a country where the socialist economic system - the government owns the means of production - has ever worked.

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@Brandon9000,

Brandon9000 wrote:

Give me an example of a country where the socialist economic system - the government owns the means of production - has ever worked.

You mean that I should follow your definition of Socialism? And additionally narrow a political term to economics?

You know that I live in the Federal Republic of Germany, which "is a democratic and social federal state" according to our constitution. And our social market economy works fine, not just for me.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Give me an example of a country where the socialist economic system - the government owns the means of production - has ever worked.
You mean that I should follow your definition of Socialism? And additionally narrow a political term to economics?

It's not my definition. I quoted you the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition. Here us the Macmillan Dictionary definition:

a political system that aims to create a society in which everyone has equal opportunities and in which THE MOST IMPORTANT INDUSTRIES ARE OWNED OR CONTROLLED BY THE WHOLE COMMUNITY

Two dictionaries agree with what I was taught in high school.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

You know that I live in the Federal Republic of Germany, which "is a democratic and social federal state" according to our constitution. And our social market economy works fine, not just for me.

Germany has a free market capitalist economy.

1 Reply

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