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Freedom vs Liberty:

 
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 07:02 am
@livinglava,
One of these days you'll have to explain exactly how you evolved from a Dr Judy "Covid is a hoaxer" to "Covid is a wake up call."

BTW: Liberty exists in any system of any size. Freedoms may or may not.
livinglava
 
  1  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 07:36 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

One of these days you'll have to explain exactly how you evolved from a Dr Judy "Covid is a hoaxer" to "Covid is a wake up call."

BTW: Liberty exists in any system of any size. Freedoms may or may not.

You're still talking about liberty and freedom in some way that doesn't share any common understanding with what I have tried explaining about liberty being the principle of self-governance that is supposed to free us from the need for external authority in the form of a king, the state, or whatever, right?

If you can't acknowledge the connection between the principle of liberty and the reason for having a republican (i.e. non-monarchical/non-totalitarian) system of government, then I don't see the point of discussing this topic with you.

I also don't know what you're talking about when you mention 'Dr. Judy" or any of these things about Covid being a hoax or not. You seem to have all political thoughts pre-categorized into a spectrum that identifies people as right or left wing instead of just thinking independently. When I say that covid19 might be a hoax, it isn't to insist that I am right and fight against people who believe it's real; it's to pose a thesis and then question it. You mentioned Hegel before, but you don't seem to understand dialectical reasoning. You just want to classify people along a spectrum of political identity (left to right) and argue against the ones you deem right-wing, because that's how you think you are fighting against fascism.
bobsal u1553115
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 08:15 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
If you can't acknowledge the connection between the principle of liberty and the reason for having a republican (i.e. non-monarchical/non-totalitarian) system of government, then I don't see the point of discussing this topic with you.


What? I don't get to have my opinion? I don't grant you that freedom. I'm at liberty to discuss and hold opinions as I wish. I choose not to recognize your hypothetical "king" and "nation". They mean nothing to me. I accept the consequences of my liberty. Feel free to start a thread about your king and and theoretical land.
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 09:39 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

What? I don't get to have my opinion? I don't grant you that freedom.

It's not my opinion. I have for a long time studied the concept of a republic, i.e. the absence of a monarch (totalitarian central authority); and why the principle of liberty as a basis for self-governance inspired people to fight for independence from monarchical rule.

Quote:
I'm at liberty to discuss and hold opinions as I wish. I choose not to recognize your hypothetical "king" and "nation". They mean nothing to me. I accept the consequences of my liberty. Feel free to start a thread about your king and and theoretical land.

Ok, but you are proving my point about people not being able to manage their own freedom in a way that makes liberty a sufficient basis for self-governance. You're basically showing how the failure to achieve mutual respect leads to separatism.

This is how I discovered that liberalism is connected with authoritarianism. If people assert that they have the freedom to do whatever they want, and they don't take care to maintain mutual respect, they just end up fighting for territorial dominance and/or to separate off into mutually exclusive territories.

It's why I quoted Learned Hand saying that nothing leads faster to the overthrow of liberty than the belief that it means 'unbridled freedom,' i.e. liberalism.
bobsal u1553115
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 11:02 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
people not being able to manage their own freedom in a way that makes liberty a sufficient basis for self-governance.



The stuff dictators say to justify control freedoms, to break the will for liberty. That was the justification for Jim Crow.

You think that's better than we have now???
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 11:12 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

Quote:
people not being able to manage their own freedom in a way that makes liberty a sufficient basis for self-governance.



The stuff dictators say to justify control freedoms, to break the will for liberty. That was the justification for Jim Crow.

You think that's better than we have now???

You are the one who likes the state so much. What do you think the state is except an authoritarian system that regulates people who can't, won't, or just aren't allowed to regulate themselves with their own liberty?
bobsal u1553115
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 11:16 am
@livinglava,
You haven't been paying attention. This is the state we have. I am not jumping out off a skillet into a fire. If my choice is Biden or Trump, I'm taking Biden. I do not believe in a Phoenix out of the ashes.
livinglava
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 11:24 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

You haven't been paying attention. This is the state we have. I am not jumping out off a skillet into a fire. If my choice is Biden or Trump, I'm taking Biden. I do not believe in a Phoenix out of the ashes.

Just understand that the Democratic party is the party of structure and regulation, while the Republican party is the party that expects people and businesses to govern themselves responsibly. If you argue that they don't govern themselves responsibly enough to be trusted to structure their own economy, I can agree with you in practice, but I just can't give up on the dream of everyone governing themselves by their own liberty and nevertheless progressing toward a just and permanently sustainable economic culture. Plus I just think that whenever the Democrats try to regulate and structure positive changes, it backfires because they can't stop people from spending the stimulus money on the unsustainable status quo.
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Fri 12 Jun, 2020 05:15 pm
@livinglava,
That's hokum. People who avoid paying taxes and drive the national dept up are not of a party of responsibility.
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