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@nat3212,

Of course they can change. Look at the prison system and sentences outside the US for examples of other systems that focus on rehabilitation.

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@nat3212,

Why do you need help with this question?

https://www.bop.gov/about/agency/agency_pillars.jsp

"It is the mission of the Federal Bureau of Prisons to protect society by confining offenders in the controlled environments of prisons and community-based facilities that are safe, humane, cost-efficient, and appropriately secure, and that provide work and other self-improvement opportunities to assist offenders in becoming law-abiding citizens."

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@nacredambition,

In the land of the brave and free we have the largest prison population of any major nation on earth by far and also more prisoners per population then any major nation on earth and that include the nations we used to love to look down upon as not having freedoms during the cold war.

Poor people who are charge with minor misdeeds such as drinking alcohol in public and without the funds to bail out or paid a fine can end up behind bars.

In the early 70s I was called for federal jury duty on a marijuana case an I can still remember telling the judge in open court that I could not be on that jury as I did not believe in the marijuana laws nor would I convict anyone under those laws.

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@BillRM,

So instead of getting the guy off you let a fascist convict him instead.

You certainly showed it to the man.

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@nat3212,

Someone can only be who they truly are, They may be able to suppress certain desires for a time, But who they are is who they are just as you are who you are,if I were to say take everything that makes you who you are and just give it up could you do it?

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@Methen,

Methen wrote:

Someone can only be who they truly are, They may be able to suppress certain desires for a time, But who they are is who they are just as you are who you are,if I were to say take everything that makes you who you are and just give it up could you do it?

People change over the years let alone the decades as a matter of course.

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@BillRM,

To a point yes, But those desires they have are just sleep not gone...

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

So instead of getting the guy off you let a fascist convict him instead.

You certainly showed it to the man.

Sorry but jury nullification is likely to work today but not in the 1970s an the only result of my refusing to convict these men and therefore hang the jury is that the state would just had retry them once more an get a conviction.

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@BillRM,

Exactly, I know someone on jury service who made sure the lorry driver caught with a load of hashish got off.

You made sure he was convicted by the next jury.

Like I said, you really showed it to the man.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Exactly, I know someone on jury service who made sure the lorry driver caught with a load of hashish got off.

You made sure he was convicted by the next jury.

Like I said, you really showed it to the man.

Sorry but I do not see how your complain is valid as there is no way that in the 70s that gentlemen found by the coast guard with a ship loaded with weed was going to get off.

Telling a federal judge as a college student in open court that I would not convict under the marijuanas laws was brave enough once more in the 70s at least in my opinion.

The funny part was that one woman after another told this judge that they could not serve due to being too anti drugs an he was getting very annoyed and then after I told him I would not convict he turn bright red to the point I was picturing a Miami Herald headline that a college kid had cause a federal judge to die from a heart attack on the brench.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Sorry but I do not see how your complain is valid as there is no way that in the 70s that gentlemen found by the coast guard with a ship loaded with weed was going to get off.

Not with that attitude.

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@nat3212,

Subverting the system of justice by lying to get on a jury is pretty despicable. If you believe in a fair justice system, subverting it for your own beliefs defeats the whole point.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Subverting the system of justice by lying to get on a jury is pretty despicable. If you believe in a fair justice system, subverting it for your own beliefs defeats the whole point.

I half agree with you but only half agree as some actions by the state is so outrageous that the state actions cried out for jury nullification an in order to do so you need to be on the jury.

Second most citizens do not understand that there is a right to Jury nullification no matter what the judge instructions happen to be or how hard the state try to filter out anyone who might apply that tool.

In other words there is no hard black and white issue here.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

We have a process to get to a fair jury (fair meaning not biased to either side). When jurors lie to get on a jury, they are subverting the process. That is a pretty serious distortion of justice in my opinion.

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

We have a process to get to a fair jury (fair meaning not biased to either side). When jurors lie to get on a jury, they are subverting the process. That is a pretty serious distortion of justice in my opinion.

So lying to be able to stop the state from enforcing the fugitive slaves laws would be wrong, lying to stop a couple from being send to prison for the crime of living together even those they are not of the same race is wrong.

Lying to get on a jury so the state could not send someone for decades in prison for having a small amount of drugs/weeds for personal use would be wrong?

Hell in my life time a married couple repeat a married couple have their door broken down an taken to jail in the middle of the night due to them not being of the same so call race.

As I said when and only when the state acted in an outrageous manner such actions may be both justify an needed,

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@BillRM,

Yes. A jury is a key part of our democracy. You don't **** with it. Would you commit voter fraud to overturn fugitive slave laws?

Either you believe in democracy, or you don't. If you can justify subverting the key parts of our democratic system, such as fair elections or jury trials, then the system is fundamentally flawed.

I would be willing to break the law to help undocumented immigrants. I would not be willing to rig an election or a jury trial. To me there is a clear line between the two.

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@maxdancona,

Sorry but I do not believe that even the majority of the people have a right to created some laws such as a law that exist in my own life time that allow the jailing of a married couple for living together when their skin color is not the same.

Jury nullification is just one fairly weak tool to limit the power of the state in the used of the criminal code to punished people who lifestyle the people in control of the state happen to disagree with.

You do know that the founding fathers have a fear of mob rule an therefore place safeguards into our system.

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@BillRM,

Jury nullification goes both ways. It did far more damage during the Jim Crow era allowing people to commit murder with no consequences then it will ever do in getting people of for marijuana possession.

If we can't have a fair trial by jury... then we should just get rid of jury trials altogether.

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@BillRM,

Just to be clear.... my objection is to lying to get on a jury that you should not be on because of your bias. This is different than jury nullification.

Jury nullification, without lying, is equivalent to voting for a third party. Lying to subvert the justice system is the same as election fraud.

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