Vandalizing a Confederate Flag

Fine with me. Of course I'm odd, being from Los Angeles.
There is a history book I'm trying to remember the name of, perhaps it'll brain flicker re the author's name.

Some are on poles, some are on short staffs on porches, some hang in windows... They're all over the place around rural Western New York. I drive around a lot and cringe whenever I see one. Three are within spitting distance from me. Others are just a five minute drive away.

I like these flags. I would fly one in front of my house. I wonder how long until it was torn down? It would be an interesting experiment.

bleach in a squirt gun?

I'm curious. What makes you think someone else can't tolerate your flag in your yard? You may be projecting.

I'd love to find out. You seem overly keen to destroy that guy's property.

Possibly. And it's not a particular guy, it's many.

On your street? 😖

Sorry. I see your remark to Blickers.

If you have children or outside pets, disregard my gay flag suggestion. They're stupider in numbers.

I really like the "Everyone Belongs" in multiple languages flag that Ehbeth posted. If I flew that one and it was ripped down it would teach me a little more about my neighbors. I think I'll buy one.

I like your plan!

You realize your neighbors have a right to fly their flags...end of discussion. If they have a right to fly the flags, you certainly don't have a right to steal or deface them, and if they are harmless, what's the problem? You have an urge to commit criminal acts because something bugs you?


That would have been a juvenile response and if you followed it now it would be worse because you are no longer a juvenile.



Do you really know why they are flying the flags or are you assuming you do? You began the post by stating that most of them are probably just ignorant. Ignorant of what? That racism is wrong? That a great many people view the Confederate Flag as a symbol of racism? You seem to be giving them some latitude but then jump into calling them racists. How do you know they are racists? While it's not a crazy assumption that people who fly the Stars & Bars are racist, that they do is not a sure sign that they are. Would you be comfortable with people making harsh assumptions about your character based on one piece of evidence that involved a symbol? If not then there's a thing called the Golden Rule that can offer guidance.

Not only do you not have a responsibility to do something, you don't have a right. By doing nothing you are not complicit in anything other than obeying the law. Your neighbors are not committing crimes and even if they were, your only obligation would be to notify the police who I guarantee you would tell your that calling them is far, far more proper than taking the matter into your own hands.



How do you know your community agrees with you? Have you been appointed by the community to be Captain of The Tolerance Watch? If not, you won't be sending any sort of message from your community, you will be sending the message that there is a sneak-thief or vandal in the neighborhood who doesn't have the courage to address the matter face to face with his neighbors.

Stealing or vandalizing the flag will serve no purpose other than to send a self-indulgent virtue signal that no one will perceive unless, after you commit your crime (and that's what it will be), you go around the neighborhood proudly telling everyone "Hey, that was me that spray painted all of those flags!"

If you feel you must do something, act like the responsible, law abiding, adult citizen you want to be and go to the front doors of your neighbors and ask if you can talk to them about their flags. If any say no, thank them for their time and go home. If they say yes, then don't beat around the bush, ask them in a non-confrontational manner why they are flying them. Some may surprise you or none may, but at least you won't have to make unflattering assumptions about their character.

If the reasons any provide convince you that they are indeed racists then you can either thank them for their time and go home or you can attempt to have a reasonable discussion with them about their views. You might even explain to them that you and some of the other neighbors are offended by the flags and would appreciate it if they took them down. It's not likely to work if they are, in fact, racists, but first of all you don't know that they are, and secondly as you've acknowledged, you have no right to demand that they take them down, so can it hurt to try asking? In any case, if you can't speak for your neighbors (meaning they've given you their permission to do so) don't. It's presumptuous and could lead to trouble between these folks and the other neighbors who don't want any part of such a thing.

If you don't think you can talk to them without getting angry and creating a scene, don't attempt it. You may think that racists have forfeited the social right to be treated with civility, but regardless of what you think, they haven't forfeited the legal right to be free of threats, harassment and public nuisance. If something happens because you went to their homes and started an argument, the law is going to consider you the instigator.

If any are racists, then a civil discussion with them is not likely to change their way of thinking, (berating definitely will not), but at least you will feel you have discharged your social obligation in a manner that is both civil and adult.

Another adult response that might have more success is to peruse the conditions and restrictions imposed by your Homeowner's Association (assuming you have one). There may be regulations concerning the flying of a flag that prohibit flying these. If there are, file a complaint with the HOA. Some allow for anonymous complaints in which case you would have the choice to remain in the shadows or let your neighbors know who doesn't like their flags. If there is a consensus among one group of neighbors that something should be done, then the complaint should be filed under all of your names.

It's not a crime to hate people and it's not a crime to fly a Confederate flag even if the intent is to send a hateful message. People who feel this way are usually very unpleasant to be around and not very happy, but regardless, you are not in a moral or legal position to punish them in anyway for their malignant thinking and behavior so better to put the matter in the hands of karma. The notion that citizens have an obligation to do anything beyond the sorts of things I have suggested above is dangerous. We don't need more people in the world feeling high and mighty and we certainly don't need vigilantes. Based on what you've written, I feel certain that you will not steal or deface the flags, but if you or one of your other neighbors did, it could easily set in motion events leading to far more harm to your community than the flying of flags.

Tom is right, doing such a thing would be baiting the neighbors and could easily lead to a feud. Feuds among neighbors often lead to headaches and misery. Being your neighbor means they live close by to the place in which you spend most of your entire life. A feud with neighbors can't be ended by hanging up the phone, walking away, or even changing jobs...you might have to move your whole family to a new home. I've seen it happen.

I don't even know my neighbors' names, and that's just how I like it. If I see them outside I'll say hello and maybe even spend a couple of minutes on small talk but that's it. It's been our philosophy on neighbors for 45 years and it's worked out great.

As you already stated, your neighbors have the right to fly confederate flags on their private property. There is nothing you can really do about it. It does show you the type of people who live in your neighborhood.

Maybe a letter would be better. A civil one that points out what the Confederate flag stands for. In this way, I've done my part. Then it's up to the flag owner to either continue displaying racist symbols or not.

Quote TomTom:

No, it wouldn't. All it would do is enrage the homeowner by trespassing on what he considers his business. You have to be an extreme optimist to think a letter from a neighbor he didn't really know is going to turn a Confederate flag waver into something else. Have you heard of such a thing ever happening to anyone else?

At best you'll probably get an irate letter back full of quotes from Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage and George Lincoln Rockwell mixed in with some from Washington and Jefferson to make it seem the first three are on a par with the last two.

I wish that I could give your post a hundred upvotes.

I saw a guy in a big truck with huge flags flying off the bumper, an American flag and a Confederate flag. I chuckled to myself and enjoyed the subtle reminder that we are so fortunate to live in a country where all are free to peacefully express ourselves.

Your neighbor flying a Confederate flag isn't a message of racism and hate. It's a public notice. Now you know how they likely feel. If you don't agree, don't invite them to your next BBQ, but do appreciate that you, like them, are afforded the same opportunity to peacefully express yourself.

And just exactly how would I express myself if not by either:
1) destroying the flag
2) flying my own flag to contradict the neighbor's flag
3) writing a letter detailing the meaning of the flag so that at least I know I did my part to educate

I don't think Beth's flag is confrontational.

It's peace-invoking.

Fly your flag.

Personally, if I felt it was necessary for me to make my thoughts known to my neighbors concerning their flying Confederate flags, I would visit them.

Assuming you are able to a) Approach them in a non-confrontational manner b) Control your emotions if you hear something you don't like and c) End the conversation as soon as you perceive it is turning into something ugly and simply walk away, visiting your neighbors will offer the opportunity to hear what they have to say and possibly engage in an exchange of ideas. It might also offer the opportunity to get punched in the face and start a neighborhood feud so there's that to think of.

Have you decided that you know their reasons for flying the flags and can learn nothing from talking to them?

When I lived in Charlotte NC, our next-door neighbors were a couple who were originally from Alabama. Several times a year they would hang an enormous Confederate flag from the balcony of the the second floor of their custom built plantation style home.

As I've mentioned, I don't often talk to my neighbors and these folks seemed to share my philosophy even to the point that they wouldn't acknowledge a friendly wave from me. At one point though, we were forced together when we both attended a Zoning Board meeting concerning construction in the publicly owned greenbelt behind our homes. According to the unique terms of my creed, we were outside of the neighborhood and so I was able to interact with my neighbor as I would anyone else, and I struck up a conversation in which, to my surprise, he participated with passion. We found we agreed that if the land was being developed by a private owner, we would still not welcome the construction but we would not be attending the meeting, however we were both angry over the fact that the city had pledged to always maintain the space as a greenbelt but were now reneging on that pledge. Most of us would not have purchased our lots if it weren't for the pledge.

One thing led to another and I learned that we shared a number of conservative views and I imagined that I might end up bending the rules for this guy and his wife. At some point he told me that he participated in Civil War re-enactments throughout the South. Apparently he was the ancestor of a high ranking Confederate officer (the name was unknown to me and forgotten after 20 minutes, let alone 20 years.) Clay, the neighbor, always played this ancestor (when historically permitted) or an officer from an Alabama regiment. According to him, his ancestor had fought in the battle of Gettysburg (the annual Superbowl of reenactments) and that was the event he most looked forward to as it drew thousands of participants.

It was truly fascinating, as Civil War reenacting is a rich and complex subculture which you might want to look into just to provide a perspective on why some people fly the Stars & Bars. Clay was a hardcore reenactor who totally immersed himself in the experience, (eating hardtack and salted pork during breaks for meals for example) and had disdain for the useful (they filled the ranks of "extras") idiots (they didn't care about the history) who treated the events as an opportunity to dress up in cheap, historically inaccurate costumes and play "Army."

As I had expected, Clay flew the flag to commemorate key events of the war, and what I didn't realize was that he was seldom home during these times. Because the Zoning Board meeting was late to get started we had a fair amount of time to talk, I had the opportunity to form the opinion that while Clay was of the mind that the Civil War was about more than slavery he wasn't overtly racist. He was, however, an obvious bigot concerning Northerners. He seemed to give a pass to those who were fellow hardcore reenactors, but had low regard for all others. Back then, Charlotte was being overrun by transplants from the North to the point where it was having an effect on the culture of the city. I didn't like it (I hoped to leave NY behind and didn't care for it to follow me to Charlotte), but Clay hated it. So much so that in the speech he eventually gave to the board, he gratuitously lambasted Northern transplants and included those who may have embraced the Southern culture they found but still wanted their bagels and NY pizza (In other words...ME!)

I hadn't told Clay where I was from and while I didn't speak with a Southern accent, 20 years of living there had rounded of the sharp edges of my NY accent and I'd adopted certain uniquely Southern phrases and even a slight twang with certain words. I doubt I sounded like a local, but I could have come from just about anywhere West of the Mississippi river. It's possible that Clay wasn't including me in his tirade, but it's also possible that he was. In any case by the time the meeting and our conversation was over, he seemed to me to be a pretty obnoxious guy. While he gave no indication that he was a racist (and he wasn't shy about letting anyone know who he liked and who he didn't like), he, of course, could have been. However, by all indications, if he also flew the flag with the intent of getting up in anyone's face, it would have been Northern transplants. Obnoxious and bigoted, but not racist, but still enough to nip our budding neighborly friendship.

My point in recounting this story (other than I view a good life as a series of good stories) is Clay, on a very basic level, was a real life example of your neighbors: He flew the Confederate flag in a neighborhood which he had to know was not fully inhabited with people who shared his passion for the Confederacy and likely did contain some residents who would be offended.

I didn't inform Clay of my belief that regardless of his intent, the fact that the flag would almost assuredly offend some of his neighbors was reason enough not to fly one of a normal size, let alone one that could blot out the sun. I didn't because the opportunity didn't arise and I felt no moral obligation to make it. In retrospect, I'm quite sure that if I had, it wouldn't have even caused a tiny ripple in the pool that was his mindset, but that wasn't why I didn't make the effort. I didn't because while the flag had bugged me, I can't say it offended me, and I didn't feel that any of my neighbors who might have taken offense from the flag were incapable of conveying this to Clay themselves. I'd never been deputized to speak on behalf of anyone else in the neighborhood and otherwise never would have. I am also a committed proponent of private property rights and free speech, and both applied to Clay's flying of the flag.

By talking to Clay I didn't find out he was a great guy with some hitherto never expressed but benign reason for flying the Confederate flag, but I did learn that I wasn't living next to a Klansman, and I learned an awful lot of fascinating things about the Civil War reenactment community.

It's unlikely that if you visit your neighbors and lead with something like "I want to talk to you about your offensive flag," that you will have the opportunity to learn anything other than how they react to being offended, but given the proper approach you could, and you could still express you opinion. Writing a letter, IMO, will not provide any opportunity beyond satisfying your desire to make a statement and feel like you've done something you are supposed to do.

Obviously it's your call, but you've asked for advice. I don't think writing a letter is something to be warned against as blickers has, just not the best way to go.

Out of curiosity, if you do send the letters, will you save a copy to show to your like-minded neighbors?

That's a good story. If there is ever some opportunity to talk with the flag-flyers at some social function, I certainly will. I just don't think walking up to the door with the intent of discussing the flags is a good idea. No matter how delicately I breach the subject it's confrontational. Now if I was invited to a barbecue, I would make polite conversation for an hour and then casually bring up the flag.
I guess I'll play it by ear...
As far as showing a copy of the letter to my like minded neighbors... probably not. I don't have a coalition of anti-Confederate flag neighbors. If I send a letter it will be polite and informational, with no demands to remove the flags.