17
   

Is Nigger an OK Word to Use?

 
 
engineer
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 08:38 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

FBM wrote:

You appear to be thinking of some sort of ideal society. In reality, people will resist even a good idea if they've learned to dislike the person that presents it. A great way to create that atmosphere of animosity is to use insulting language about another person or group. End of cooperation.


People need a kick in the ass about as often as they need a cooperative buddy.

ARGUMENT REJECTED

I think you rejected that statement far too quickly. The idea of getting people to turn away from ideas by attacking the spokesman (ad hominem) is ridiculously common. How many people won't even consider something Obama (or Bush before him) proposes because of how his politics and personality have been painted? It is very common in war time for opponents to create racial or nationalistic slurs for their enemies in order to dehumanize them thus making killing them less horrific. Nigger is one such slur.

Let me ask you this (honest question). What is the positive to using Nigger? If the goal of words is to communicate effectively, what do you think you are trying to say when you use that word?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 09:10 am
The use of the word is meant to demean. That is why it is unacceptable.

If Hawk had any balls at all, and I am not accusing him of having any...

...he would walk into a neighborhood bar in Harlem and use the word loudly.

That would answer his question better than any comment made here in A2K.
engineer
 
  2  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 10:00 am
@Frank Apisa,
I don't think so. I think he would then say that proves his point and that violence as a response to speech is wrong. What would be really impressive is if he would realize that as a member of the most favored class, words really are harmless to him because they are not backed up with actions. That is not the case for minorities. Hateful words are followed by actions like denial of job opportunities, police harassment, unequal access to housing, physical abuse, etc. When someone calls Hawk a hateful name, that is all it is. When someone calls a black person a nigger, that is a promise (threat) of what is to come.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 01:48 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
What would be really impressive is if he would realize that as a member of the most favored class, words really are harmless to him because they are not backed up with actions. That is not the case for minorities.

I disagree, I think that the playing field is level based upon race, that I am favored not because I am white but because of my economic class. I come from a place where getting a good education and doing something with me life was expected, even though through much of my childhood we did not have a lot of money and there was sustained violence in the home I was still expected to achieve. The fault lines in this society revolve around money and expectations, not race.

Quote:
When someone calls a black person a nigger, that is a promise (threat) of what is to come.
Really? So all of these blacks calling each other nigger are threatening to beat each other up? Time for a rethink, by you.

All you of you people who think that the solving of people living in misery is building them stuff and handing them money should look at the perpetual hell hole that is Haiti. $13 billion into the latest round of giving them stuff has gotten them nowhere, as always. The reason is that they are not willing to help themselves, they sit around telling their victim story endlessly while whining that outsiders are not giving them enough, MORE! MORE! but they are not willing to do much of anything for themselves. American blacks are not as bad, but close. Blacks are still whining about slavery which touch their families many generations ago, that is their excuse for failing, but you dont hear that from other so called minority groups. The vietnamese for instance that came over when the South was lost often were successful within a decade being here, usually after coming onshore not even being able to speak the language. The got to work, learned, and were rewarded for it. THis is what the blacks need to do, and until/unless they do giving them more handouts is not going to help. Felling sorry for them is not going to help.
engineer
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 02:00 pm
@hawkeye10,
And yet studies done where employers are sent the exact same resumes but with different sounding names shows huge differences in responses for the ethnic sounding names. Police traffic stop rates are much higher for blacks than whites. The idea that the level field is level is refuted by just about every study that attempts to measure it.

Quote:
Time for a rethink, by you.

No, I'm pretty comfortable with my position. Attempting to take back a slur is a different situation. Those same people would likely be a lot less enthused about you using it unless they knew you well.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 02:12 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
And yet studies done where employers are sent the exact same resumes but with different sounding names shows huge differences in responses for the ethnic sounding names.
And we will continue to do it so long as members groups prove that they tend to not be as good employees as members of other groups. We dont run charity outfits we run business, and we need to make the best bets that we can when choosing labor.

Quote:
Police traffic stop rates are much higher for blacks than whites.
good for them, they need to be efficient in tracking down the bad guys. So long as race is a predictor of criminality they should be stopping and talking to the members of the higher crime rate races. This is not racism, this is good policing.

Quote:
Attempting to take back a slur is a different situation.
Part of my point is that a word that those claiming offense use all the time can not be considered a slur. It is only a slur they claim if somebody outside their in group uses it, to which I call bull ****. If Blacks want to complain about the usage of the word, if they want to claim that it is a bad word , then they need to stop using it before they start their whining. I am not going down the road of dividing rights in America by the genetic make-up of individuals.
firefly
 
  1  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 03:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Part of my point is that a word that those claiming offense use all the time can not be considered a slur. It is only a slur they claim if somebody outside their in group uses it, to which I call bull ****. If Blacks want to complain about the usage of the word, if they want to claim that it is a bad word , then they need to stop using it before they start their whining. I am not going down the road of dividing rights in America by the genetic make-up of individuals.

You are making a case for your alleged right to engage in hate speech. It's really a bogus free speech argument. You view blacks with contempt, whether it's in America or Haiti or anywhere else, and you want the "right" to voice your contempt and demeaning attitude by using the most historically vile and inflammatory racial slur a white person can use to refer to a black person.

Whether some blacks also use the term, in an entirely different context, is irrelevant to your argument, since you are not in a position to decide what should be offensive to groups of which you are not a member, and the use of that term, by some blacks, is not without considerable controversy within the black community. The fact remains, that as a white man, you cannot divorce the word "nigger" from its historical use as a dehumanizing term of utter contempt, and, by whining about how this allegedly limits your freedom of expression, you are really being quite disingenuous. You want the alleged "right" to voice your contempt for blacks in the most blatant manner you can, without any repercussions to yourself, and in complete disregard of how offensive to blacks that might be coming from a white man.

You're just another arrogant, and ignorant, white guy who is trying to couch his racist attitudes in the context of a free speech argument. Wrapping yourself in the flag doesn't make you any less a racist. Go right ahead, use any slurs and insults toward any groups you wish to, it makes you even easier to spot as a bigot, for those who might have any remaining doubts.

engineer
 
  2  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 05:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

And we will continue to do it so long as members groups prove that they tend to not be as good employees as members of other groups.

So the field is not level and people do discriminate on race. That was my point. Your idea that everything is a meritocracy is clearly wrong when the name on the resume controls who gets a job interview.

hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:
Police traffic stop rates are much higher for blacks than whites.
good for them, they need to be efficient in tracking down the bad guys. So long as race is a predictor of criminality they should be stopping and talking to the members of the higher crime rate races. This is not racism, this is good policing.

Stopping people based on their race is racism. You can also call that good policing if you want, but you can't say something that is very definition of racism is not racism.

hawkeye10 wrote:
Quote:
Attempting to take back a slur is a different situation.
Part of my point is that a word that those claiming offense use all the time can not be considered a slur. It is only a slur they claim if somebody outside their in group uses it, to which I call bull ****.

That is your free speech right.

hawkeye10 wrote:
I am not going down the road of dividing rights in America by the genetic make-up of individuals.

And yet above you said it is perfectly ok for employers and police to take action based on the genetic make-up of individuals. You only seem to be concerned when someone says your race can't do something.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 06:16 pm
@firefly,
Quote:

You're just another arrogant, and ignorant, white guy who is trying to couch his racist attitudes in the context of a free speech argument. Wrapping yourself in the flag doesn't make you any less a racist. Go right ahead, use any slurs and insults toward any groups you wish to, it makes you even easier to spot as a bigot, for those who might have any remaining doubts.

The word bigot like the word misogynist being slurs on those who insist on practicing speech which is not approved by the elite. But **** them, I am not their subject, I bow to no one.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 06:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:

You're just another arrogant, and ignorant, white guy who is trying to couch his racist attitudes in the context of a free speech argument. Wrapping yourself in the flag doesn't make you any less a racist. Go right ahead, use any slurs and insults toward any groups you wish to, it makes you even easier to spot as a bigot, for those who might have any remaining doubts.

The word bigot like the word misogynist being slurs on those who insist on practicing speech which is not approved by the elite. But **** them, I am not their subject, I bow to no one.



You indeed are a brave individual.

I do not understand why you have not taken me up on the challenge to visit a bar in Harlem or Watts...and explain to the patrons there that the use of that word should cause no problems for them.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  5  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 06:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I bow to no one.


you're in the customer service business

you bow to everyone in real life

________


you want to present as mr. independent thinker here - that's cool. just don't pretend to be shocked and appalled when you're called on the things you say

and that "we used to be better than this" bullshit you keep pulling Rolling Eyes
firefly
 
  2  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 07:09 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
that "we used to be better than this" bullshit you keep pulling


When Hawkeye says, "We used to be better than this" he's referring to the 'good old days'--when blacks knew their place, women knew their place, gays knew their place, and accepted it, without their outrageous demands for equality in all things, and for basic respectful treatment as human beings. Hawkeye's just trying to turn the clock back, and cut them back down to size, when he calls them niggers, cunts, and fags. How else can a big, tough talking, over-the-hill, white guy show that he "bows to no one"? By voicing these things anonymously on the internet, of course. Laughing Such courage and autonomy he displays in doing that. Laughing



ehBeth
 
  2  
Sat 17 Jan, 2015 08:32 pm
@firefly,
that's pretty much what my Rolling Eyes says
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Sun 18 Jan, 2015 05:00 am
@hawkeye10,
It's one thing being outrageous, confrontational, bohemian even. If nothing else it forces people to re-examine "truths," opinions, maxims. In can have a purifying effect, help stir things up a bit.

Unfortunately none of this happens if you're thick as mince.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 18 Jan, 2015 08:57 am
Just want to second what Firefly, Beth, and Izzy just said.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Tue 23 Jun, 2015 12:21 am
So according to The Professor the fact that the word Nigger draws a huge negative reaction proves that we are not healed from slavery. I think that he is right, and the fact that blacks use the term often but whites almost never shows that it is the white people who have the problem. Obama of course spins it differently, in his mind nigger still having power means that whites need to hand over more stuff to black people.
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Tue 23 Jun, 2015 02:57 am
@hawkeye10,
Of course it is not necessary to use that word to show scorn and contempt.

You use the words "black people"...and evince more hatred and scorn that way than most show using the other.

You ought to try getting over that, Hawk...no matter which words you decide are appropriate.
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Tue 23 Jun, 2015 10:13 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Blacks for sure often use the word, but some claim that only blacks should be allowed to use it, which according to me is BS.

My opinion is that words should never be banned, and that nigger is a lot like the word slut, it has been reclaimed and should no longer be considered a negative word.

What say you?


I think there is more going on here than just wondering if a word should be used or reclaimed.

First of all why does it matter so much? I mean I can use the word slut but I chose not to. Certain words only have as their basis one aim in mind. The word is socially charged, so you can't expect people to just rationalize reclaiming the word and neutralizing it. It is absurd to even suggest that it should be neutralized and reclaimed, unless you actually have other motivations which is to use it because you know it will still cause pain for people to hear it.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Tue 23 Jun, 2015 10:20 pm
@Krumple,
Quote:
First of all why does it matter so much? I mean I can use the word slut but I chose not to. Certain words only have as their basis one aim in mind. The word is socially charged, so you can't expect people to just rationalize reclaiming the word and neutralizing it. It is absurd to even suggest that it should be neutralized and reclaimed, unless you actually have other motivations which is to use it because you know it will still cause pain for people to hear it.


Are you serious? Because we have to be militant about not accepting ANY constriction of our communications, because every GOD DAMN piece of our way of life depends upon this free and open communication happening. We CAN NOT allow ourselves to degrade the quality of the collective upon the demand of the weak and/or damaged. The fact that almost no one understands that today speaks to the atrocious damage that victim culture has already caused.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Tue 23 Jun, 2015 10:29 pm
@hawkeye10,
This gets to the point that Firefly has been making for years, she claims that I am an asshole with bad ideas since I insist upon using "offensive" words, and that is complete bullshit. I am one of the last guys standing who has had enough education (thankfully never having been all the way poisoned by the "Education System") who still knows what the good life is built upon. I am walking the streets with a lot of brain dead idiots, many of whom are sure that they are educated. Sometimes I just want to SCREAM.
 

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