The Fermi Paradox

This is one of the possibilities i speculated about. Life might arise on a "water world," and one or more species may attain sentience, and a high order of intelligence. But living in or under the water, they ain't gonna be doin' no metalurgy--no radios, no space craft, no RVa.

This is pure speculation of course... but I suspect that a water creature with a high order of intelligence would develop metallurgy, radios space craft etc. etc. They would just get there in a different order than we did

Getting to the Stone Age, the same way we did, seems fully plausible. Math would be equally useful. Agriculture and breeding would occur. Electricity will be studied as it naturally occurs under water and is useful for war (things that are useful for war are always researched with urgency). Metallurgy may even come after Electricity. Astronomy navigation transportation would likely all be developed with them just as it was with us and will drive technology.

We live in and depend on air (just like our speculative aliens live in and depend on water)... and yet we have escaped this environment to now develop technology that can't be produced in our natural environment.

Likewise these intelligent creatures would notice the boundary of their "atmosphere" and curiosity would drive them to travel above it. The IAS (International Air Station) would be created to explore the air and experiments would be run by renowned Air Physicists. Eventually fire would be discovered, and the next step would be to go beyond the air.

It seems easy to imagine how a water world creature would reach space.

Not electronics; they wouldn't be able to contain it, because it wouldn't exist under water. They would have to know what electricity is before they can harness it.

What are you talking about? Electricity does exist underwater. It exists under water in nature.

There are several underwater animals who have evolved to use electricity as a weapon. Any intelligent alien will see this and their scientists will research it and learn how to generate it. I would imagine that underwater intelligent aliens could develop electricity earlier than we did.

There are insulators under water. Once they figure out the Leyden jar they could proceed much as we did.

Oh, yeah, I forgot about the electric eel. You're right, but I'm not sure how they contain those voltage underwater.

The types of machines we use (e.g. a computer), black-smithing over a fire, etc. couldn't really be done the same way. Some of these types of things would have to be done in a bubble of gas or vacuum, or oxygen for processes that depend on fire. Eventually it might be easiest for them to do many of these types of things above the water. They could get there, but it would be different from our own technological evolution.

the first thing theyd have to get a handle on is what we call Snell's Law, since all things reflect and refrqct in water differently than they do in air an the interface hs its own properties of light transmission.

Metallurgy in water is gonna be tough, unless these guys learn to handle the mid oceanic ridges or using some kind of induction with the earth.
How do you propose that they generate and transmit electricity in a perfectly conductive medium. Im sure theres a wy but itd involve a degree of industry tht would require the intellifish to venture onto land no?

I have no idea how electric "eels" generate potentials but Im sure it has to include some way for it electrolytes to be kept isolated until needed.
However how the Hunter Organ is not something it can "Hook up" to a radio or blender.

Light does not refract in water any more than it does in air. Snell's law is only a significant factor when the light crosses a boundary (i.e. from air to water). Light is refracted when it enters our atmosphere... this wasn't an issue for us until we understood it well enough to compensate for it. I would imagine that that would be the same for our intelligent water aliens.

Water is not a perfectly conductive medium. It is much more conductive than air of course, but it is not quibbling for me to say that it not perfectly conductive. Again, I will point out the usefulness of electricity to eels and other creatures (which evolved this without the benefit of intelligence). Electricity clearly dissipates over distance in sea water.

In order for an intelligent society to make scientific progress it needs to realize that some phenomenon is worth study or that some technology is possible. Once this happens, scientific genius takes over.

The electric eels would provide the motivation to master electricity (much as bird provided us the motivation to master flight).

I like the idea of using nature to expand human knowledge. The electric eel is a good example of how man can harness electricity under water until needed. There is another handicap that must be overcome, and that is the fact that the eel itself does not shock itself. How that's done is one of the handicaps that needs to be resolved.

light is refracted in many "Clines" within water (salinity, temp, etc). Its always responding to any Boundary condition.

To whom? You are now creating a "Super sentient" without hving evolved it yet. Species must walk first.

That is true in air as well.

yep, clines abound.

5S/mmm (conductivity of seawater) which is what we were talking about for all our sentient "fish" (except electric "eels" which you brought up as an eg for Ci) I believe all species of electric "eels" are fresh water.

Hmmm.

I was assuming a alien that has the same intelligence and curiosity that human beings have. Setanta suggested a water planet (i.e. no land). The interesting question is whether a intelligence equal to ours that evolved completely under water could develop our level of technology.

I believe they could. They would follow a different technological path, but I don't see a reason that they couldn't develop the ability to leave the limits of their environment just as we did.

The index of refraction of vacuum is 1 by definition. The index of refraction of air is about the same. The index of refraction of water is typically about 1.33.

Yes, I did overestimate the refraction based on our atmosphere. But, I think I have a valid point that this would not impede the scientific or technological development of our putative water aliens.

I think most of us knew that the refraction in water was a bit bigger than above it. I remember a tribe in the Pacific who knew how to spear fish with excellent accuracy, because they knew the refraction in water.

I don't disagree at all. Its just that the path to "Top Gun" and sentient beings would, if coming out of the sea, require them to evolve terrestrial habits? cause dealing with water and its viscosity problems and stuff that Set mentioned (metallurgy, , fire and its consequences for industry) BUT DIDNT WE ALREADY LEAVE THE SEA ONCE FOR GOOD IN THE DEVONIAN??

SO, In order to make "Top Gun" status anew, something may have to , once again, come out of the seas again ?