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Farmerman Your Expertise Please

 
 
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 07:20 am
So I'm reading about Fracking method for getting Natural Gas out of the ground and it says it's the hammer instead of scalpel method and that as well as releasing natural gas it releases uranium, plutonium and other goodies in the soil and groundwater as well.

so Farmerman my expert friend, is Fracking bad, good, or in between.

My impression based on anecdotal evidence of all energy producing enterprises is that it's probably the cheapest way to do it and the energy people don't give a **** about whether it's ultimately safe or not as long as it produces the quickest and easiest profit, but I will bow to your expertise in the matter.

Thanks in advance.

anyone else with knowledge feel free to chime in.
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Type: Question • Score: 4 • Views: 1,843 • Replies: 15
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ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 08:49 am
@blueveinedthrobber,
I just finished this interesting article; too bad, the New Yorker site only shows it as an abstract of the whole piece. It was just this last week's issue, April 25, if you can get ahold of a copy. It's probably still on the new stands, given that the publishing date was yesterday..

I learned a lot, primarily how these guys started out with procedures that at least I question, and improved techique along the way. The author gets into the pros and cons of fracking, though not as much as I'd have liked.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/04/25/110425fa_fact_konigsberg
The title is "Kuwait on the Prairie".

Will be interested in Farmerman's take..
Joe Nation
 
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Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 09:09 am
Hey.

Thanks for starting this thread, bear.

Joe(cuz I don't know nuthin')Nation
farmerman
 
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Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 11:02 am
@Joe Nation,
Im split on this. Every fracking operation Ive known has got a mass of release products in its discharge water. (They will pump anywhere from 3 to 9 million gallons into the deep drill holes under hiigh pressure) The fracturing then occurs as the pressure mounts past a specific point for that rock body. Most of the fracking is being done in sandstone than shale beds because they can propogate more tiny cracks that will then carry the gas.
The products in the fracking water is already made up as a chemical mix in a water base. It uses organics, soaps, metal carbonates and stuff like antacids. When the fracking liquid is pumped back out, it is even nore laden with everything that does include radiaoactive elements from the rock itself. The rock units in PA and NY arenaturally full of Uranium and Thorium (Im not sure about plutonium because the natural isotope for plutonium is rare and its needs beryllium to be incontact with uranium so that the decay product is Pu--So, I dont know about that one. (If its true,Id be more concerned because Pu is more of an environmental concern because it generates alpgha [particles which are a wek radioactive compound but can cause tumors in your snot surfaces like lungs and nasal cavities)

Nobody seems to be doing anything about it until recently. PA has just stopped the collection and dumping of fracking fluids until the drillers come up with some method to better treat and dispose. This is a good step . Im not too happy of the head in the sand attitude like New York where they seem to be banning drilling altogether.
Ae need this gas to get an alternative fuel economy rolling. To just stop it is stupid. However, the state of PA DOES NOT TAX the drillers to help defray the costs of cleanup. PA has some of the most fucked up streams fromall thepast coal mining and now we are giving the gas drillers a free fuckin ride.

But we do need the gas.

1tax em(Its called a severance tax,)
2Make the drillers get staffers on employ who know about environmental wengineering(Most companies that used to be able to do the research and design have morphed into "commodity services" since the 1990's)

3MAke em plan and build treatment facilities
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 11:15 am
@farmerman,
Oh, and the drillers need to be doing good monitoring of the streams and ground water and topography to see that nothing escapes. In some areas of NE Pa, theyve had a few gas well sites develop high angle fractures that propogate all the way to peoples domestic wells (Remember, the gas wells are from 7 to 9000 feet deep and house wells are only 2 to 400 feet. SO they shouldnt be connected by cracks right? not so. SOme house wells have actually caught fire or exploded when gas migrated into someones house and into the water pressure tanks. SO whenever the well pump goes on and the little solenoid switch at the water tank turns on the pump because the pressure switch engages, a tiny spark occurs and the basement of the house blows up.
That would **** up your day, especially, if , like in our house, we have the laundry in the basement
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Butrflynet
 
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Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 02:38 pm
@blueveinedthrobber,
A few months back I started a similar topic that also encompassed geothermal energy and my suspicions that both are responsible for the perodic swarms of earthquakes in the areas where these processes are being performed.

The topic didn't get any responses, but there are some good descriptions of the processes there, if you're interested:

http://able2know.org/topic/169199-1
farmerman
 
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Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 03:33 pm
@Butrflynet,
The gas companies have the state by the cojones and they know it. We really need a governor with

1.SOME BALLS

2INDEPENDENT THINKING THAT FAVORS THE CITIZENS OF HIS STATE

Herew an qartidle from WSJ about forced pooiling which i a sort of eminent domain to acquire drilling rights from holdout property owners who are scared about environmental consequences and possible insurance denial of EIL claims (Environmental Impairment Liability)

Quote:

Associated Press
PITTSBURGH — Gov. Tom Corbett told a crowd from the region's booming natural gas industry Tuesday that Pennsylvania needs its help to climb out of the recession, but he also warned that he would aggressively enforce environmental laws and that he opposes a controversial change in law sought by drilling companies.HE IS SO FULL OF **** HIS EYES ARE BROWN

"Forced pooling" is tantamount to private eminent domain, and he doesn't agree with it, Corbett told the seminar crowd in suburban Pittsburgh, which is a fast becoming a hub for multinational energy companies exploring the Marcellus and Utica shales beneath Pennsylvania, Ohio and West Virginia.

"I'm sure there's many here, many here that would like to see" forced pooling for Marcellus Shale gas, he said. And then he told what he called "maybe a dirty little secret" about companies that say they would be willing to pay a severance tax that is the subject of much debate in the state Legislature.

"They never add the caveat that I know that many of the companies that have gone to Harrisburg have said, 'Yeah, we'll take the tax if we get certain things in regulation, including the forced pooling,'" Corbett said.

Forced pooling is on the books in some other states and can be used to force holdout landowners to lease their below-ground gas rights under certain conditions. The issue, at the top of the industry's wish list since at least last year, has gained little traction in the Legislature. Companies say it would help limit the number of roads and wells built to extract gas.

Corbett also opposes a severance tax on gas extracted from the Marcellus Shale, the nation's largest-known gas reservoir.

On Tuesday, he reiterated his stance against it, and tried to underscore the urgency of competing for the industry's money and equipment. The Marcellus Shale beneath Pennsylvania is one of six natural gas deposits vying to offer the best return on investment for energy companies, he said.

"I need, we need, Pennsylvania needs the jobs today to get out of this recession," he said.

Pennsylvania is the nation's largest natural-gas producing state that does not tax the activity.

Corbett, who said the media would call Tuesday's crowd of several hundred a "friendly audience," accepted nearly $1 million in donations to his gubernatorial campaign from people in the natural gas industry.

However, he closed his 35-minute speech by promising to vigorously enforce environmental laws and saying he will use his power to grant drilling permits to punish companies, if necessary.

"I know how to get the attention of your CEOs, whether they be here in Pennsylvania or in Oklahoma or in Texas or in Louisiana, and that's through the permit," Corbett said.

He spoke a week after he asked natural gas drillers to stop one of their most troubling environmental practices: taking polluted wastewater from gas wells to riverside treatment plants that aren't equipped to remove all the contaminants


WSJmakes it seem like its either or. THE gas companies will accept a severance tax IF, they can have forced pooling. I hope the legislature holds out for both. Id aslso like to see a proviso that insurance claims for EIL will NOT be contested (based upon reasonable science)
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 04:08 pm
@Butrflynet,
I noticed that but had no opinions; it's one of my interests.
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ossobuco
 
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Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 04:10 pm
Farmer, not to press, but I wish you'd read that article on the North Dakota fields in the NYer and give us a take.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 26 Apr, 2011 04:19 pm
@ossobuco,
Theres nothing inherently dirty in fracking or innovative in slant drilling. Slant drilling has been known for thirty years but recent developments in pinpointing the drill bits location have turned it pretty much into an exact science. Fracking is just like pushing mushy cornmenal down a hole and then overpessuring it so it rams its way into the formation. The secret is to have the fluid go from a viscous material to a low viscosity almost liquid material in a short few seconds.
blueveinedthrobber
 
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Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 08:53 am
@farmerman,
I'm betting fracking is the quickest and easiest path to big profits. **** everything else.
farmerman
 
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Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 09:52 am
@blueveinedthrobber,
Actually, its the ONLY way. Thats why its being used.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  0  
Reply Thu 28 Apr, 2011 10:10 am
@farmerman,
Yes, the article I linked to helped me understand that.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
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Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 04:54 am
good morning Farmerman. I am concerned that although Natural gas could really transform us and our foreign policy... it is still a non renewable energy source.

In your opinion is it not vital to put as much R&D into AND begin implementing in earnest the development of renewable energy right alongside the development of natural gas?

Or am I just being a hippie? Laughing
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 05:16 am
@blueveinedthrobber,
Naah, youre right on in my mind. Im a fan of the"we cann do both" method of energy "independence". The Dems are seemingly only locked onto alternative energy, cpnservation and NO drilling, whereas Republicans are only in favor of drilling their assses off.
Both extremes are stupid. We need to develop and infrasturcture that will allow exploitation of these natural fossil reources , while at the same time develop new alternative means.
Other countries seem to have gotten it. I think that CHina will overtke and pqass us quicker than we realize because they arent having these culture wars about drilling v solar. Theyre doing both.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
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Reply Wed 11 May, 2011 06:07 am
Do we ever learn anything? sigh....
0 Replies
 
 

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