How the Petroleum Age Will End

@Green Witch,

Jimmy Carter's most major accomplishments in life are the regimes in Iran and Rhodesia (I refuse to call that place "Zimbabwe"), and the Panama Canal being in Chinese hands. That's hard to top.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Cyclo--
I disagree because I feel that there will be as much (or more) investment in alternative energy infrastructure as there would be in the original product (full hybrids, capacitor discharge etc). It requires charging stations and new connections. A diesel economy requires no major infrastructure changes.

I own a Ford Escape Hybrid and Im amazed at how little the car dealers are invested in these.Theres only one certified hybrid mechanic in my entire town and ,to me, all these electric and hybrid cars are an afterthought and the technology is not being pushed by US carsmakers (Gm is only coming out with the volt and Chrysler makes none).

I believe that we are market driven,not technology driven. The electric car and even hybrids require a new bunch of investments that arent being made.
The easy answer is"well it will be a big investment after they sell a few hundred thousand electric cars".

Noone has decided on a single format or key technology, hybrids, plug ins, diesel hybrids, cap d, all electric.
Also, batter tech is still ten or more years away from having a car that will make it for >300 miles in a recharge.

NOPE, Im gonna invest in diesel tech, It requires no real infrastructure change, the engines are really just another IC engine , and the fuels carried are dense and easily obtainable. All it takes is a fatty acid, an alcohol, and a base.

That still dont appear on the horizon.

Gotta say, it sounds workable, at least.

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@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

Cyclo--
I disagree because I feel that there will be as much (or more) investment in alternative energy infrastructure as there would be in the original product (full hybrids, capacitor discharge etc). It requires charging stations and new connections. A diesel economy requires no major infrastructure changes.

Yes, but it's still a super inefficient method of energy delivery and a limited one. It requires pumping oil out of the ground and refining it and shipping it.

(I know that you talk about biodiesel but that's still just a tiny industry, I discuss that below. The truth is that the majority of diesel for the time being is going to be petroleum based, and if that's what you are pushing, the things I list above are the result)

Electricity on the other hand can come from any source of production. That's a win in the long run over any physical energy source, hands down. As gasoline - even if it is diesel - gets hard to find and more expensive to manufacture (which my environmental allies and myself will keep working to make happen - it's only cheap right now b/c the external costs are ignored) electricity will quickly supplant it; GIVEN that batteries exist. Which is why that part's important.

Quote:

I own a Ford Escape Hybrid and Im amazed at how little the car dealers are invested in these.Theres only one certified hybrid mechanic in my entire town and ,to me, all these electric and hybrid cars are an afterthought and the technology is not being pushed by US carsmakers (Gm is only coming out with the volt and Chrysler makes none).

There are a lot of them where I live. Wait a few years and it'll move east, just like everything else in America.

Quote:

NOPE, Im gonna invest in diesel tech, It requires no real infrastructure change, the engines are really just another IC engine , and the fuels carried are dense and easily obtainable. All it takes is a fatty acid, an alcohol, and a base.

That still don't appear on the horizon.

I haven't seen any large-scale biodiesel plants to invest in that I would consider to be efficient or profitable. Maybe you can clue me in on them. Most of the stuff I see in that area is cottage-industry level. I think that they are as far or farther away from viability as the battery technology.

As for the IC engine - IC engines suck and you know it! They are inefficient as hell and waste practically all that great energy tied up in diesel or gasoline. Why should we be promoting this?

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

I think Farmerman is talking about biodiesel, not dead dinosaur diesel.

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

I expect hybrids to be a very temporary fad. Plug-in electric is the way to go. All-electric vehicles are quite, powerful, and efficient.

Currently, there are range issues and charging time issues, but I expect that these will be solved.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I think Farmerman is talking about biodiesel, not dead dinosaur diesel.

Yah, I know that. I directly addressed that in my post. But increasing use of diesel engines will mean increasing use of all sources of diesel and diesel production. Many if not most won't give a **** where the fuel comes from, so this is an inevitable result; the oil companies aren't going to stop refining fuel if there's a market for it.

Cycloptichorn

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I expect hybrids to be a very temporary fad. Plug-in electric is the way to go. All-electric vehicles are quite, powerful, and efficient.

Currently, there are range issues and charging time issues, but I expect that these will be solved.

Me too! This is my entire position. The IC engine is a dinosaur, just hanging on due to the investment we have in it.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Eventually, there will be no other choice.

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@Cycloptichorn,

yawn. Thats so true, but when is "soon". I say that battery tech is never closer than 10 years. Anyway, electric motors have to give up torque for speed and there will be NO amenities. (Heat ac etc without a tagalong 30 hp petro engine). Are you gonna put in a nuke ?

They never discuss the point that all electric cars have no AC or heat without huuuge losses of rangeand speed.

3 Replies

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

yawn. Thats so true, but when is "soon". I say that battery tech is never closer than 10 years. Anyway, electric motors have to give up torque for speed and there will be NO amenities. (Heat ac etc without a tagalong 30 hp petro engine). Are you gonna put in a nuke ?

They never discuss the point that all electric cars have no AC or heat without huuuge losses of rangeand speed.

Shrug. I don't foresee a 'one-size-fits-all' solution. Hybrid engines are great for extending length, for emergencies, and for the next few decades until battery technology can cope with those things.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

They never discuss the point that all electric cars have no AC or heat without huuuge losses of rangeand speed.

Yeah, that's a big limitation here in Texas. But most of my family's driving is <30 miles round trip, anyway.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

I do think you are correct in much of what you said but I thought you may like this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=369h-SEBXd8

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@DrewDad,

Did I miss this? Toyota has a new air conditioning system run totally on solar. It's designed to work best in places like Texas, New Mexico, Arizona etc.

http://www.reallynatural.com/pictures/solar-prius.jpg

1 Reply

@Green Witch,

Green Witch wrote:

Did I miss this? Toyota has a new air conditioning system run totally on solar. It's designed to work best in places like Texas, New Mexico, Arizona etc.

not quite what it seems like, it is actually a solar powered ventilation system, not air conditioning.

1 Reply

Yup, heat's a big problem with the new electric vehicles. It won't fly up here until it does unfortunetly.

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@Irishk,

Laughs, me too, me too.
The worst time was with a VW.

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@dyslexia,

Quote:

not quite what it seems like, it is actually a solar powered ventilation system, not air conditioning.

Well, this is a big part of the problem though. The thing doesn't blow cold air - the air conditioner on the car does that - but it pumps the hot air at the roof of the car out FAR more efficiently than would happen through natural convection of heat. So when you have it on, the AC works way better - and on a lot of days you can use it instead of the AC.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

first of all I'm not anti solar powered ventilation, i think it's a great idea, the remainder of your commentary is bull ****. according to the Prius users manual, the solar powered ventilation system is intended to be used while the car is parked and is capable of maintaining ambient temps inside the car. A/C here in New Mexico where it is being marketed would continue to be needed to about the same degree thus significantly lowering the mileage/range of the car. yes, on days you don't need A/C now, you would continue to not need A/C. (or you could roll down a window)

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@Green Witch,

Quote:

Automatic uses more gas, no?

Used to be true, not true today.

Some of the newer and more expensive cars have automatics which are roughly as efficient as a manual transmission but the numbers will never be there. Particularly for the kinds of smaller and cheaper cars which younger people typically buy, often used, the manual transmission versions are a lot more efficient.

1 Reply

@gungasnake,

Bullshit, but you're a total idiot, so who is surprised by that?

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

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