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:) Wal-Mart-Low Prices...Always Better?

 
 
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 09:39 pm
Wal-Mart recently made the news about hiring illegal immigrants to cut costs in order to offer lower prices to their customers. I was just curious about the general opinion of Wal-Mart. Is this retail giant good or bad for our society? (i.e. the economy, employment rates, monopolization {is that last one a word or did I make that up? lol}) I have heard both sides of the issue and was wondering how others felt...
My personal opinion is wavering. I have heard the negativity and understand the reasons for those opinion, but on the flip side, I shop there several times a week-would that make me a hypocrit? I think it would. So before you answer (shoot from the hip, so to say) ask yourself how many times you have been there in the past month.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 4,282 • Replies: 35
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 09:41 pm
Walmart did not hire the illegals in that news story.

I detest Walmart for other reasons.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:31 pm
WalMart was kept from building on a certain piece of property in my town and I was one of the people who helped make that happen, slightly, by vote and donation. I was not entirely against WalMart coming to the region, but was adamant about the spot they chose.

True though, it would be hard to find a good spot, as I live in a relatively spared semipristine area. Because of an unusually low population, many corporate shopping entities haven't arrived here, and part of the population feels bereft, and another part loves the lack. The cry for WalMart was for reasonable prices for what is a fairly low income county.

I've only been to WalMart once, when I was driving through central California in dire need of some cd's for the trip; really desperate, I got off Highway 101 in Salinas at the WalMart sign and picked up some sound.

I've always liked individually owned shops, always will. I am sort of a product snob, so that is one reason. Another is I like the competence that comes with some individually owned stores, such as some good old fashioned hardware stores, where the employees have been there for a long time and are very savvy. Mar Vista Lumber in Los Angeles used to be one of those, to give a specific example.

I am skittish about our offshore manufacturers not taking care of employees, or not-employees, as the case may be.

I don't like the big box affect on the urban or more correctly suburban landscape, big boxes are generally relatively inexpensively built, fairly homely to my eye, and their surroundings are generally poor in terms of pedestrian orientation. Drive in and load up. One of my peeves, in a larger sense not directed entirely at WalMart, is the diminution of pedestrian life, pedestrian culture. I tend to write whole swaths of commentary on this, so will cut it short. One more thing against WalMart and others for me, though. True as well, WalMart didn't start this removal of pedestrian culture.

Then there is the tremendous volume that people buy, because of the volume pricing ratio. I see it is a wretched excess in a oddly tilted world of goods.

On the other side, I am watchful about money, and agree with the need for reasonable prices. I have been to KMart here, a first since I didn't need to darken their door in Los Angeles. I would surely like to see more alternatives to Big Stores. I do love street markets, for example, and shop at thrift stores for fun as well as pricing.

I see a lot of products out there as all the same, quite homogeneous, and made with much flimsier materials than I have seen in the past. Finally, it is boring to me.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:36 pm
Wal MArts corp development is to have a store evry 100 sq mi or so. for this they will kill any town that gets in their way. They only sell commodity based stuff most of which is foreign and directly competes with the town they conquer. In Maine, which for the most part, is a 3rd world state, wal Mart comes in and any similar stores close leaving empty buildings and no m oney returning to the local economy. Have you noticed any really well informed people providing service at a Wal Mart.

There is nothing in a WalMart that I consider necessary. I try to shop in my town mostly, and for specialty goods, I use specialty stores in other towns. I like service wherein the provider understands the product and isnt some un informed register watcher who has no clue of tools or sport goods or cameras.
As Ive found with cameras, Wal Mart isnt usually the best price and feature available. They just sort of sell the most available and least complicated thing.
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Eva
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:39 pm
ossobuco wrote:
I've always liked individually owned shops, always will. I am sort of a product snob, so that is one reason. Another is I like the competence that comes with some individually owned stores, such as some good old fashioned hardware stores, where the employees have been there for a long time and are very savvy. Mar Vista Lumber in Los Angeles used to be one of those, to give a specific example.

I don't like the big box affect on the urban or more correctly suburban landscape, big boxes are generally relatively inexpensively built, fairly homely to my eye, and their surroundings are generally poor in terms of pedestrian orientation. Drive in and load up. One of my peeves, in a larger sense not directed entirely at WalMart, is the diminution of pedestrian life, pedestrian culture. I tend to write whole swaths of commentary on this, so will cut it short.


You're talkin' my language, osso!!!
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:45 pm
Angliz, welcome to a2k!

Walmart is one of many companies which uses forced labor and sometimes slave labor to produce goods that they can sell well below the average market price, thereby putting small or honest businesses out of business. I strongly suggest you read a book titled, Disposable People, by Kevin Bales. It details the global use of slaves by farmers on up to manufacturers of clothing and home goods.

Here is a link and an excerpt from a site that explains why Kathie Lee handbags were so cheap (I'm sure you remember the scandal). This story is typical of slave labor and forced labor which major 'respectable' companies use to keep prices down. (I haven't been to Walmart for a couple of years, but I have to admit to shopping at Target, which is probalby just as bad.)

http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/chinareport/walmart.shtml

The daily work shift at the Qin Shi Factory is 12 to 14 hours, seven days a week, 30 days a month. At the end of the day the workers return "home" to a cramped dorm room sharing metal bunk beds with 16 other people. At most, workers are allowed outside of the factory for just one and one half hours a day. Otherwise they are locked in.

Working up to 98 hours a week, it is not easy to find the time to go out. But the workers have another fear as well. Before entering the Qin Shi factory, management confiscates the identification documents of each worker. When someone goes outside, the company also takes away their factory I.D. tag, leaving them with no identification at all. If you are
stopped by the local security police you could be detained and deported back to your rural province as an illegal migrant.

When you need to use the bathroom the company again confiscates your factory I.D. and monitors the time you spend. If you are away from your workstation for more than eight minutes you will receive a severe fine.
All new employees are illegally charged a deposit of 80 rmb ($9.64 U.S.) for a three year work contract, along with another 32 rmb ($3.86) for the first 10 days living expenses, which includes two dismal meals a day.

Further deductions from the workers' wages are made for the temporary residency and work permits the workers need, which the factory management intentionally delays applying for for several months. This also leaves the workers trapped and afraid to leave the factory grounds, since without these legal permits they can be deported at any minute.
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Diane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:50 pm
Damn, I had to check on Target. Ignorance was bliss.

http://weeklywire.com/ww/07-26-99/boston_feature_2.html
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 10:51 pm
I don't like the way they operate, they learn your business and cost, then tell you what they'll pay you for your product. They have clout, I guess they've earned it through their sales figures. I was always taught in sales to make every penny on the product that you can yet stay competitive with the market.

I compared prices on a Timex watch once, in Wal Mart it was $45, at the mom and pop jewelry store the same watch was $75. The small retailer don't have a chance, and Wal Mart leaves 10 to 20 dollars on the table they could have made on the watch and still crushed the competition.

They have it made with the hook up with Marathon fuels buying direct, and a lot of their merchandise in the store is in there on consignment, Wal Mart doesn't have to worry about shortages, returns or damage on those products. Some poor vendor CEO is sweating bullets hoping Wally World sells enough of his product to cover the overhead on very thin margins.

Sometimes they don't even own the parking lot, Wal Mart's responsibilities end at the sidewalk at some locations. Then there's the thousands of part time employee's on purpose to avoid providing benefits so they can sell that watch for $45 and run out of business the conventional long established smaller business down the street.

They are a vicious competitior, but what can you do, they even devistated KMart and some other sizable chains. They did a lot of this under the guise of being "Made in USA", that's a load of bull.
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:20 pm
Interesting. I do shop at wal Mart a few times a year for things I can't find anywhere else, but I wasn't aware of what they do. Maybe I can find somewhere else to get those items. I would hate to shop at a place that doesn't treat their employees fairly.
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2003 11:47 pm
My town's downtown, where I have a design business and art gallery, was very blighted by the building of a mall about a mile and a half down highway 101, a cheesy mall at that. They have countered by making it tourist oriented, not so much as in tourist kitsch, but as in tourist serving, so there is a shoe store, a bed and bath boutique-y store, two clothing stores, a zen oriented gift shop, and Irish Shoppe, a couple of other gift shops, a bead store, two book stores, an art supply store, five miserable restaurants, a travel shop. Hard to find a hardware store, a pharmacy, stationery supply, cleaners... Some of the problem with this is the town is fairly lively in the summer, but summer is not forever, and you can roll a bowling ball down the street in February.
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Wy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 01:25 am
Grocery clerks in California are currently engaged in a battle to keep WalMart out. WalMart employees are non-union, and when they come in, other, unionized grocery stores are forced out of business. Raley's chain closed all the stores in one town, throwing hundreds of people out of work.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 05:37 am
Just a quibble with Brand X's post (which I thought was largely spot-on).

When Wal Mart was promoting the "USA" image they were also really doing so. They ceased to push that image when it stopped being representative of reality.

You won't find them running those ads anymore, for example.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 07:17 am
I took a cross country trip a few months ago. What struck me was the number of Super Wal-Marts that I found along the way. For those who don't know, the Super Wal-Marts are Wal-Marts on steroids. (Just kidding- they have a huge grocery store, sometimes a photography studio, hair salon, as well as a lot more of the usual stuff in a Wal-Mart)

Anyhow, what we noticed, was that the Wal-Marts were all placed at either the beginning or the end of a town.

I was discussing this with someone recently. His "take" on it was that since Salm Walton died, the current management has gotten much more agressive. In my town, we have a regular Wal-Mart that is about 12 years old. There are plans to tear it down, and build a super Wal-Mart, about a mile away from the first one. (at the edge of town)
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kirsten
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 07:27 am
Hmmmm..any of you folks have WMT in your portfolios?
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 09:42 am
farmerman wrote:
Wal MArts corp development is to have a store evry 100 sq mi or so. for this they will kill any town that gets in their way. They only sell commodity based stuff most of which is foreign and directly competes with the town they conquer. In Maine, which for the most part, is a 3rd world state, wal Mart comes in and any similar stores close leaving empty buildings and no m oney returning to the local economy. Have you noticed any really well informed people providing service at a Wal Mart.

There is nothing in a WalMart that I consider necessary. I try to shop in my town mostly, and for specialty goods, I use specialty stores in other towns. I like service wherein the provider understands the product and isnt some un informed register watcher who has no clue of tools or sport goods or cameras.
As Ive found with cameras, Wal Mart isnt usually the best price and feature available. They just sort of sell the most available and least complicated thing.


Thanks Farmerman - that's pretty much right on target.
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husker
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 09:44 am
kirsten wrote:
Hmmmm..any of you folks have WMT in your portfolios?

If I do, it's only because it's part of a giant mutual fund.
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 10:01 am
Quote:
Wal-Mart employs more people than any other company in the United States outside of the Federal government, yet the majority of its employees with children live below the poverty line. "Buy American" banners are prominently placed throughout its stores; however, the majority of its goods are made outside the U.S. and often in sweatshops. Critics believe that Wal-Mart opens stores to saturate the marketplace and clear out the competition, then closes the stores and leaves them sitting empty. Freedom of speech issues also come into play. Musicians are at the mercy of Wal-Mart's stringent content rules, forcing many to create "sanitized" versions of their albums specifically for the discount chain.

The sentiment behind Wal-Mart founder Sam Walton's promise of a "better life for all" belies questionable business practices - many that have been challenged by employees, unions, environmentalists, recording artists and human rights organizations.

Forbes magazine, polling business executives (not employees) has ranked Wal-Mart among the best 100 corporations to work for. Yet the employees on average take home pay of under $250 a week. The salary for full-time employees (called "associates") is $6 to $7.50 an hour for 28-40 hours a week, which is typical in the discount retail industry. This pay scale places employees with families below the poverty line, with the majority of employees' children qualifying for free lunch at school. When closely examined, this amounts to a form of corporate welfare, as the taxpayer subsidizes the low salaries. One-third are part-time employees - limited to less than 28 hours of work per week - and are not eligible for benefits.

The company is staunchly anti-union. New employees are shown videotapes explaining that instead of unionizing, they benefit from the open door policy, allowing them to take their complaints beyond the supervisors to higher management. When the United Food and Commercial Workers tried to organize workers across the country, labor experts were brought in for "coaching sessions" with personnel who support unionization. Employees complained that these were intimidation sessions. Many such complaints are currently on file with the National Labor Relations Board.

Whereas Wal-Mart employees start at the same salary as unionized employees in similar lines of work, they make 25 percent less than their unionized counterparts after two years at the job. The rapid turnover - 70 percent of employees leave within the first year - is attributed to a lack of recognition and inadequate pay, according to a survey Wal-Mart conducted. Yet this can work to the company's advantage, since it is more difficult for unions to organize when there is constant employee turnover.

Wal-Mart's statement on unions:
At Wal-Mart, we respect the individual rights of our associates and encourage them to express their ideas, comments and concerns. Because we believe in maintaining an environment of open communications, we do not believe there is a need for third-party representation.

The open door policy is supposed to be so that you can complain to higher managers if you have a problem with one of the lower managers. The associates joke sometimes that the open door policy is really the "open your mouth and they'll show you the door policy." For example, this guy who worked in the parking lot at our store, when it got hot in the summer, he wanted to transfer inside and when he used the open door policy, they showed him the door. They fired him.

- from an exclusive interview with a Wal-Mart employee


Wal-Mart is the leading employer of people of color in the United States. More than 125,000 African Americans and more than 74,000 Latinos work at Wal-Mart and Sam's Club store's nationwide. Two Latinos sit on the board of directors along with two women out of 15 board members. Only one woman serves as an executive officer of the company.

Full-time employees are eligible for benefits, but the health insurance package is so expensive (employees pay 35 percent - almost double the national average) that less than half opt to buy it. Another benefit for employees is the option to buy company stock at a discount. Wal-Mart matches 15 percent of the first $1800 in stocks purchased. Yet most workers can't afford to buy the stock. In fact, not one in 50 workers has amassed as much as $50,000 through the stock-ownership pension plan. Voting power for these stocks remains with Wal-Mart management.

Made in the U.S.A?
Despite a well-publicized "Made in the U.S.A." campaign, 85 percent of the stores' items are made overseas, often in Third World sweatshops. In fact, only after Wal-Mart's "Buy American" ad campaign was in full swing did the company become the country's largest importer of Chinese goods in any industry. By taking its orders abroad, Wal-Mart has forced many U.S. manufacturers out of business. The chain was broadly criticized for being the primary distributor of many goods attracting controversy, including Kathie Lee Gifford's clothing line, Disney's Haitian-made pajamas, child-produced clothing from Bangladesh and sweatshop-produced toys and sports gear from Asia. Difficult working conditions also exist in the United States: In 1991, labor inspectors found labels for Wal-Mart brands being made in Manhattan's Chinatown. There, 16 and 17 year-old Chinese immigrants without permits had been working for one month without being paid.


Wal-Mart's statement on sweatshop allegations:
Wal-Mart strives to do business only with factories run legally and ethically. We continue to commit extensive resources to making the Wal-Mart system one of the very best. We require suppliers to ensure that every factory conforms to local workplace laws and that there is no illegal child labor or forced labor. Wal-Mart also works with independent monitoring firms to randomly inspect these factories to help ensure compliance. In fact, we conduct more than 200 factory inspections each week to ensure these facilities are being run legally and ethically.





Quote:
People are surprised that Wal-Mart would even want to locate a store at Ashland, with another one 10 miles away. But that's part of the Wal-Mart saturation strategy. They place their stores so close together that they become their own competition. Once everybody else is wiped out, then they're free to thin out their stores. Wal-Mart has 390 empty stores on the market today. This is a company that has changed stores as casually as you and I change shoes.

- Al Norman, Sprawl-Busters

Empty Boxes
Wal-Mart stores are often the size of four or five football fields - huge in scale compared to many of the small communities that they neighbor. Criticized for deserting stores that under-perform, Wal-Mart has left behind more than 25 million square feet of unoccupied space across the country (May, 2000). The company claims it tries to sell these properties, but the only potential buyers are other big retailers, and Wal-Mart will not sell real estate to its competitors. In one Kentucky town, an empty Wal-Mart was torn down at the taxpayers' expense.

Censorship

With its roots in the Southern Christian heartland, Wal-Mart believes that being a "family" store is the key to their mass appeal. They refuse to carry CDs with cover art or lyrics deemed overtly sexual or dealing with topics such as abortion, homosexuality or Satanism. While Wal-Mart is the world's largest CD retailer, and in some regions the only place in town to purchase music entertainment products represent only a fraction of their business. However, it is a different story for recording artists. Because Wal-Mart reaps about 10 percent of the total domestic music CD sales, most musicians and record companies will agree to create a "sanitized" version specifically for the megastores. Sometimes this entails altering the cover art, as John Cougar Mellencamp did when asked to airbrush out an angel and devil on one of his album covers. Other times, musicians change their lyrics and song titles. Nirvana, for example, changed its song title from "Rape Me" to "Waif Me" for the Wal-Mart version. They also changed the back-cover artwork for the album In Utero, which Wal-Mart objected to because it portrayed fetuses. And when Sheryl Crow released her self-titled album, Wal-Mart objected to the lyric, "Watch our children as they kill each other with a gun they bought at Wal-Mart discount stores." When Crow would not change the verse, the retailer refused to carry the album. This type of censorship has become so common that it is often regarded as simply another stage of editing. Record labels are now acting preemptively, issuing two versions of the same album for their big name artists. Less well-known bands, however, are forced to offer "sanitized" albums out of the gate.

Wal-Mart's statement on stickered music:
Wal-Mart will not stock music with parental guidance stickers. While Wal-Mart sets high standards, it would not be possible to eliminate every image, word or topic that an individual might find objectionable. And the goal is not to eliminate the need for parents to review the merchandise their children buy. The policy simply helps eliminate the most objectionable material from Wal-Mart's shelves.

Magazines don't escape Wal-Mart's "family values" rule, either. Cosmopolitan, Rolling Stone, Vibe and others have been pulled off the shelves because the retailer deemed the covers too provocative. Some magazines willingly send advance copies to big retailers like Wal-Mart for their approval, and will even alter cover artwork to avoid losing sales.


Source
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 10:34 am
Same answer as Husker, I only have mutual funds.
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kirsten
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 12:36 pm
I detest the whole Wal-Mart shopping experience and avoid it if possible. However, I have relatives in a small midwestern town, who certainly saw the arrival of WM in their community as a godsend! It saved a lot of driving time into the city and provided a sort of community center. A friend related the experience of being in a small town on a Saturday prom night...There were all the kids in their formal attire, hanging out at Wal-Mart!
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fishin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 2 Dec, 2003 12:49 pm
farmerman wrote:
In Maine, which for the most part, is a 3rd world state, wal Mart comes in and any similar stores close leaving empty buildings and no money returning to the local economy. Have you noticed any really well informed people providing service at a Wal Mart.


You've only listed half of the story here. Drive up to Presque Isle Maine and take a look around. 15 years ago, before WalMart moved in, the town was dying. Most of the mom & pop stores on Main St. were vacant and boarded up.

WalMart bought an old grain mill, tore it down and built a brand new store. People from all over Notrthern Maine started showing up in town to shop there. A few years later a mall was built right across the street from the WalMart and even more people came to shop.

Now if you drive through downtown Presque Isle every one of the store fronts on Main St. are an open, running business and unemployment is well below the 30% level it was 15 years ago.

I'm not a huge fan of WalMart but they're stores aren't the death knell for communities that many proclaim.
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