A Military Draft

Forums:
Email this Topic • Print this Page

A Military Draft, or Conscription.

Before I ask any questions, I'll give a brief overview on the draft.

Short Overview
Conscription refers to a general term for involuntary labor as demanded by a center of authority. Though modern government often uses conscription tactics in a [less] cruel way than before, the draft has had a long history of oppression and human rights failures.

Modern conscription traces back to the Ilkum, which was a general code used to enlist those eligible in the Babylonian Empire. Though this was forbidden by the code of Hammurabi, it was a common way to find an army at a time of war. Most citizens who disagreed simply left their town, effectively nullifying their requirement.

The draft wasn't always friendly. In fact, it seemed analogous to slavery in its long history. The Turks kidnapped children and young men in a tribute known as the devşirme. This cruel form of taking the enemy's children was unequivocally a powerful tactic; reducing their work force, lowering population in the long run, and disheartening the enemy as well.
In the Civil War, the Union also established a draft to encourage more people to join the fight. Many simply fled as well, proving ineffective. The draft only made up 6% of Union forces following the Enrollment Act.

Notes and Statistics
-Not everyone who is conscripted is willing to go to war. It was shown by the massive amount of draft dodgers that war sparks a feeling of oppression. I'm sorry to break it to government draft-supporters, but the draft dodgers often outsmart the government.

-Historically, there has been resistance to conscription in almost every country and situation where it has been imposed. Draft dodgers were usually scoffed at and called cowards by military brainwashees, but the Vietnam War brought much support for these 'dodgers'.

-The Selective Service System is just a dumbed-down appellative of the original draft. Hiding the draft is different than abolishing it, and it is evident that the government strongly considers re-establishing draft if they need a list of vict- erm... I mean 'enlistees':nonooo:.

-Though women are conscripted in Taiwan, transsexuals are exempt. A quick change of gender and you're free, I guess. They are still either men or women however, you can't be non-gender.

Subjectively Interpretable Questions
1. What is your position on the draft?
2. If you have a strongly grounded opinion on draft, what makes it morally right or wrong? If possible, use logic (the philosophical definition of logic).
3. Is the draft responsible for gender, age, race, religious discrimination? Explain.
4. Is a Public Service alternative sufficient compensation for conscientious objectors, or is it not? Would you choose Public Service if you were chosen for a draft? Explain.
5. Inane Bonus: What is, like, your favorite, like, color lol?

Rules
No ad hominems, try to omit redundant points from your argument(s), and none of this: :poke-eye:
-Have fun, hopefully.
Leonard

(Sources:)
1. Current News from Educate-Yourself.orgdraftindex.shtml
2. usmilitary.about.com/od/deploymentsconflicts/a/draftprocess.htm
3. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

Topic Stats
Top Replies
Link to this Topic

Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 2,736 • Replies: 22

No top replies

@Leonard,

Leonard;96064 wrote:

-The Selective Service System is just a dumbed-down appellative of the original draft. Hiding the draft is different than abolishing it, and it is evident that the government strongly considers re-establishing draft if they need a list of vict- erm... I mean 'enlistees':nonooo:.

The Selective Service System is the same system used for the draft of the Vietnam War. It was established in 1917 - no one is trying to hide the fact that the government can reactivate the draft.

Leonard;96064 wrote:

1. What is your position on the draft?

As implemented, I'm opposed.

Leonard;96064 wrote:

2. If you have a strongly grounded opinion on draft, what makes it morally right or wrong? If possible, use logic (the philosophical definition of logic).

It is morally wrong because it compels people to work for the sake of destroying other people. Sure, it is always possible to use logic.

Leonard;96064 wrote:

4. Is a Public Service alternative sufficient compensation for conscientious objectors, or is it not? Would you choose Public Service if you were chosen for a draft? Explain.

No, because there cannot be compensation for such intrusive interference in a person's life. But, sure I would go public service were I drafter.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

As it stands now, I don't agree with reinstating the draft in the United States. First off, I don't want to kill anyone, and a draft would force me into an institution based upon murder. Second, the United States is based upon the word "Freedom". It's the United States' policy to protect the freedoms enjoyed by its citizens. As it stands, a draft infringes upon my freedom to remain a pacifist. There is one exception to this that I would accept, though. If the United States itself were threatened by invasion, for instance, and a draft was necessary to protect the infrastructure of the country, I would accept the draft and gladly join. I reason, that if the job of the United States government is to protect the rights and freedoms it provides me, drafting me to protect that government which protects my freedoms would be acceptable. The government can't protect itself, it's not a physical entity, the people the government recruits can protect it though (and in turn, once it is protected it can continue to protect me). I feel like in the case of invasion, a draft is basically the governments way of saying "Help me, help you."

James (Rubix Cube)

0 Replies

@Leonard,

Thanks for the comments so far.

0 Replies

@Leonard,

Leonard;96064 wrote:

Subjectively Interpretable Questions
1. What is your position on the draft?
2. If you have a strongly grounded opinion on draft, what makes it morally right or wrong? If possible, use logic (the philosophical definition of logic).
3. Is the draft responsible for gender, age, race, religious discrimination? Explain.
4. Is a Public Service alternative sufficient compensation for conscientious objectors, or is it not? Would you choose Public Service if you were chosen for a draft? Explain.
5. Inane Bonus: What is, like, your favorite, like, color lol?

1. I think that it serves a purpose to protect our freedoms (bites tounge). But Also there are easier ways.

2. It just seems logical to me that if our country is really under physical threat, then we have enough honarable men and women to fight off that threat gladly. I would say the draft is "wrong" because I believe that no person has any authority over another.

3. uhhh, meaning should we have to put that down on paper? lol, seems like the only way to grant theses freedoms is by paper, but since its already been done (We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.) But I still dont agree with a draft.

4. Nope. I think purpuseful service is built on the conviction of the individual and not by force. I would be a draft dodger. Though I dont think I would dodge til the last second. Cant live your life in fear:poke-eye:.

5. RED. the color of blood. Charge!!!! lol.

Good post Leonard.

0 Replies

@Leonard,

Leonard;96064 wrote:

A Military Draft, or Conscription.

Before I ask any questions, I'll give a brief overview on the draft.

Short Overview
Conscription refers to a general term for involuntary labor as demanded by a center of authority.

13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

I am opposed to a military or any other sort of draft or conscription, regardless of circumstances.

1 Reply

@BrightNoon,

We would never reinstate the draft unless we had to fight china, but all there invested money is in U.S. Dollar! Hah. No we wouldn't need to reinstate the draft if someone invaded our soil because a true american would fight anyways. Don't Tread on Me, because my ACU's tell me different.:devilish:

1 Reply

@I am question,

I am question;97018 wrote:

We would never reinstate the draft unless we had to fight china, but all there invested money is in U.S. Dollar! Hah.

That would be a problem for us, not for them.

1 Reply

@BrightNoon,

No silly once they go to war with us they have no money because its in u.s. currency. So we would start production on our soil again, they wouldn't have money because they couldn't use the U.S. Dollar to exchange into yen, so they are screwed, plus they would never go to war with us, America is China's most important market. We wouldn't even use ground tactics, no way we got the Chair force, excuse me the Air force for those type of situations.

1 Reply

@I am question,

Once we went to war, they would sell over a trillion dollars in treasury bonds overnight, which would cause the dollar to lose all value instantaneously. We would have no money, or rather no functioning currency. For an example of what happens to a military machine when the currency collapses, See Late Roman Empire. Also, keep in mind that their reserves are not of any use to them at all at the moment. In other words, if they lost them, it would in no way impair their ability to wage war, to the extent that they now can make war now without using those reserves. But I agree with you that they would never start a war. There's no reason to; they can sit back and watch the U.S. collapse under its own weight, like the USSR. We, one the other hand, might well start a war. Our government is going to need something to distract alot of angry, hungry Americans in a few years.

1 Reply

@BrightNoon,

BrightNoon;97081 wrote:

Once we went to war, they would sell over a trillion dollars in treasury bonds overnight, which would cause the dollar to lose all value instantaneously. We would have no money, or rather no functioning currency. For an example of what happens to a military machine when the currency collapses, See Late Roman Empire. Also, keep in mind that their reserves are not of any use to them at all at the moment. In other words, if they lost them, it would in no way impair their ability to wage war, to the extent that they now can make war now without using those reserves. But I agree with you that they would never start a war. There's no reason to; they can sit back and watch the U.S. collapse under its own weight, like the USSR. We, one the other hand, might well start a war. Our government is going to need something to distract alot of angry, hungry Americans in a few years.

lol I love it! Yeah well Im still waiting for our collapse(knock on wood). Hey its gonna happen. China will continue to buy US Treasury bonds even though they know the dollar will depreciate because such investments remain its "only option" in a perilous world. But they couldn't even compete with us because they lack a navy. But this conversation is pretty much a dead heat to nowhere. Much appreciated for your intelligent thought.

0 Replies

@Leonard,

Lol to stupid americans Very Happy

... you guys are really stupid. Even on philosophy forums. Saying "WE ARE STILL STANDING" does not belong to philosophy forums.

Anyway, you took the definition of draft the wrong way. There were a vast number of social philosophers in 18th/19th cent., who made a number of valid claims towards involuntary "draft". All understanding that main goal of society is to preserve itself. Now, if it is a "good" society it will try its best to preserve itself in a "good" way - meaning, it will chose only valid methods suitable to the time, place and situation.

You guys made a number of invalid arguments saying that society/country should not force you to kill for it. Well, in history there actually were times when such drastic measures were needed and if such situation arises again society will not hesitate to draft our sorry asses under arms. Why?
There is a simple argument that was first build by ancient Greeks. But lets take a bit more modern approach and quote for example Rousseau. For him, draft is legit because, when you enter society, you "sign" (agree upon) some kind of contract which basically says that you will, for the benefit of yourself, preserve other person's rights. And that, my philosophical friends, draft is - it is nothing more than, in the time of need, extended this basic contract you all respect as civilised human beings. While in peace this contract is limited to you limiting your own rights (the famous definition of freedom - I am free for as long as my freedom does not intrude into freedom of others) in time of war it is simply extended into more active form. But the basic of it remains the same: to protect other persons and, in effect, societies own rights. Draft as illegal? You gotta be kidding me!

2 Replies

@Callo,

Thanks for calling me a stupid american, a nice way to approach things. Im pretty sure if anyone was drafted to fight for their country they would, if they would flee or hide,:surrender: then they shouldn't be in that country in the first place, what's wrong with protecting yourself here?

0 Replies

@Leonard,

If hypothetically there were a war with china, we have gold to back us up.

0 Replies

@Callo,

Callo;97115 wrote:

Lol to stupid americans ... you guys are really stupid. Even on philosophy forums. Saying "WE ARE STILL STANDING" does not belong to philosophy forums.

Slovenia eh? ... :sarcastic:

Quote:

Anyway, you took the definition of draft the wrong way.

I for one defined draft as 'involuntary servitude' other than as punishment for a crime following trial and conviction.

Quote:

There were a vast number of social philosophers in 18th/19th cent., who made a number of valid claims towards involuntary "draft". All understanding that main goal of society is to preserve itself...You guys made a number of invalid arguments saying that society/country should not force you to kill for it. Well, in history there actually were times when such drastic measures were needed...

Those arguments are not 'invalid,' the people making them simply do not accept your claim that the purpose of society should be to preserve itself. My view is that the purpose of society should be to protect the rights of the indvidual; if society can only preserve itself by ignoring individual rights, then let it perish. As for the draft likely being instituted in the U.S., I agree, but that doesn't mean it should be instituted. A draft is illegal in the U.S. See the 13th amendment to the U.S. Constitution, which I posted already. It explicitly prohobits the government from putting any citizen into 'involuntary servitude,' unless than citizen has been convicted of a crime in a court of law.

1 Reply

@BrightNoon,

Well, let me say I am sorry. Don't get me wrong - I am not sorry for calling the dude above me a stupid American. To me a definition of stupid American is simply an American who is in love with his own country ad hominem. Meaning that they don't offer arguments but knock on wood and shout ?WE ARE STILL STANDING?. So my apology to all the smart Americans - I do not believe that such a nonrational notion represents majority of Americans therefore I made a fail parody where I took a very well known term ?stupid Americans?.

Anyway, anyhow lets be serious. What BrighNoon said is a well accepted notion that glorifies freedom over everything. That indeed is a core problem. As Mill once wrote: I cannot trade happiness for freedom - because in the end I will end up with happiness disappearing. The same goes for freedom in our case - I mean maybe we did buy (and very well paid) the idea of freedom as something extremely important, for some even more important than the society, which is the fundamental thing for freedom to exist (by the way). At some point freedom is indeed useless - If I offer an underpaid worker in 3rd country to have a freedom of speech he will take my offer as an insult. He needs food - he cannot use his freedom of speech.
Inter arma enim silent leges - you see, when you read USA Constitution you should not automatically apply it to war. Freedom in the time of total war (that is the condition when draft is good -see the definition of good in my previous reply) is utterly useless.
Rousseau goes even further. He says that in time of war the countries that are in war both returns into state of nature - and that, my friend, is a state where you have total freedom but you have no rights - meaning your freedom is merely a fiction - it can be taken away from you by someone more powerful. This is a time when all laws are silenced. Because society's only concern is its own survival. By doing so it is temporarily cancelling the individual rights in the name of these same rights being secured again in the future.

Let's think for a moment about Nazism. You said that a society that forces you to defend it, is bad and should have not survived. I presume that you do not know much about the history of southern Europe during WW2. In that time there was a popular saying used - going something like this ?if you are not with us, you are against us? - off course being shot on sight if you were against. That is some sort of very aggressive and cruel form of military draft. But society/countries needed new recruits in order to fight the very real threat - the Nazi Germany.
If such drafts would not be so cruel - our today could be much different. They temporarily terminated some of the rights just so we can enjoy them today. Or to put it directly: they terminated freedom for a brief moment so the idea of freedom would not be erased entirely. Are you still certain that you rather see a society that forces you to "work for your own future good" dissolve than to survive?

1 Reply

@Leonard,

I wouldn't say the country is stupid, but there is fallacious logic in some of the laws. For instance, affirmative action. It's irrelevant so I won't explain, but there are some great people behind the bulk of corporate/social drones.

---------- Post added 10-14-2009 at 05:09 PM ----------

Being american isn't all that bad. We have burger flippin', cow grillin' summers and snow shoveling, car crashing winters Smile

0 Replies

@Leonard,

Cool, at least this thread doesn't have a hundred posts.

0 Replies

@Leonard,

Leonard;96064 wrote:

A Military Draft, or Conscription.

Before I ask any questions, I'll give a brief overview on the draft.

Short Overview
Conscription refers to a general term for involuntary labor as demanded by a center of authority. Though modern government often uses conscription tactics in a [less] cruel way than before, the draft has had a long history of oppression and human rights failures.

Modern conscription traces back to the Ilkum, which was a general code used to enlist those eligible in the Babylonian Empire. Though this was forbidden by the code of Hammurabi, it was a common way to find an army at a time of war. Most citizens who disagreed simply left their town, effectively nullifying their requirement.

The draft wasn't always friendly. In fact, it seemed analogous to slavery in its long history. The Turks kidnapped children and young men in a tribute known as the devşirme. This cruel form of taking the enemy's children was unequivocally a powerful tactic; reducing their work force, lowering population in the long run, and disheartening the enemy as well.
In the Civil War, the Union also established a draft to encourage more people to join the fight. Many simply fled as well, proving ineffective. The draft only made up 6% of Union forces following the Enrollment Act.

Notes and Statistics
-Not everyone who is conscripted is willing to go to war. It was shown by the massive amount of draft dodgers that war sparks a feeling of oppression. I'm sorry to break it to government draft-supporters, but the draft dodgers often outsmart the government.

-Historically, there has been resistance to conscription in almost every country and situation where it has been imposed. Draft dodgers were usually scoffed at and called cowards by military brainwashees, but the Vietnam War brought much support for these 'dodgers'.

-The Selective Service System is just a dumbed-down appellative of the original draft. Hiding the draft is different than abolishing it, and it is evident that the government strongly considers re-establishing draft if they need a list of vict- erm... I mean 'enlistees':nonooo:.

-Though women are conscripted in Taiwan, transsexuals are exempt. A quick change of gender and you're free, I guess. They are still either men or women however, you can't be non-gender.

Subjectively Interpretable Questions
1. What is your position on the draft?
2. If you have a strongly grounded opinion on draft, what makes it morally right or wrong? If possible, use logic (the philosophical definition of logic).
3. Is the draft responsible for gender, age, race, religious discrimination? Explain.
4. Is a Public Service alternative sufficient compensation for conscientious objectors, or is it not? Would you choose Public Service if you were chosen for a draft? Explain.
5. Inane Bonus: What is, like, your favorite, like, color lol?

Rules
No ad hominems, try to omit redundant points from your argument(s), and none of this: :poke-eye:
-Have fun, hopefully.
Leonard

(Sources:)
1. Current News from Educate-Yourself.orgdraftindex.shtml
2. usmilitary.about.com/od/deploymentsconflicts/a/draftprocess.htm
3. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

The devserme was the result of a head tax, which Christians or Jews had to pay, and Muslims did not have to pay...People simply gave one of their children in lew of taxes...There was no kidnapping involved...People paid their debts, the bureaucracy raised them to be soldiers, and quite good ones at that, the Janisaries...

We should have a draft, but since it will be poor folks being drafted, there ought to be a war tax too, only on the rich, and then both rich and poor can unite about how stupid our foreign wars are, and get out... A good defense is the best defense...Democracies make good neighbors because they are defensive as a form... So let's do what we do best, and quit trying to suicide with a dull knife...

0 Replies

@Leonard,

Good thread, Leonard...

Leonard;96064 wrote:

1. What is your position on the draft?

I support the draft only in cases of:

A) A verifiably just war (eg. one that has a legitimate cause that can be verified by the public) - in which case there would also need to be evidence that existing military strength was insufficient unless a draft were enacted.

B) In case of eminent or existing invasion by a foreign power

C) In case of a severe depletion of US Military troop strength due to casualties.

Quote:

2. If you have a strongly grounded opinion on draft, what makes it morally right or wrong?

I believe the draft is moral only when there is urgent and verifiable need. It is arguably the duty of citizens of a country to help defend it in times of war that involves the potential destruction of one's country or important strategic allies of one's country.

Quote:

3. Is the draft responsible for gender, age, race, religious discrimination? Explain.

I"m not sure I understand the question. If you're asking if the draft discriminates, certainly it does - namely against non-heterosexuals. This was the case in WWII (in the US) and continues on in the US to this day.

Quote:

4. Is a Public Service alternative sufficient compensation for conscientious objectors, or is it not?

I think so. As long as conscientious objectors are contributing to the nation in some capacity during a time war, this should serve as compensation for not performing military service. And in any war, there will be tons of such positions.

Quote:

Would you choose Public Service if you were chosen for a draft? Explain.

It depends on the nature of the war. I most likely would not have served in the Iraq War if there had been a draft because it was an unjust and illegal war. However, I would've served in WWII (had I been around then).

If a new war erupted that I felt was a just war, I would serve.

-ITL-

0 Replies

Forums
» A Military Draft

Read Discussion
Reply to All

A Military Draft

Quick Links

My Account

able2know