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Human Experimentation at the Heart of Bush Administration's Torture Program

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 11:52 am
@Pangloss,
Sorry but thats too simplistic. I dont condone the torture of captured combatants as an act of necessity. Wanting to find out the amount of combatants facing you or their next act against you, does not warrant torture. That only requires intense interviews and possibly certain deprivation. Torture should only be used to subvert actions that are posed against civilian targets. Even then torture should be used within certain recognised standards. I mentioned before your idea of torture might be another's idea of an interview. We need to clarify what is and what is not. I know that certain terrorists have been tortured and would never even admit they have been tortured, because of the trickery they faced and the results it gave.
Pangloss
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 12:43 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:

That only requires intense interviews and possibly certain deprivation.


There's a thin line between deprivation and torture.

Quote:
Torture should only be used to subvert actions that are posed against civilian targets. Even then torture should be used within certain recognised standards. I mentioned before your idea of torture might be another's idea of an interview.


LOL. There's a clear difference between an "interview" and "torture", xris. I'm not confused about that. The only people who would say the two are remotely alike are those trying to justify torture.

And how would you know who has the information needed to prevent attacks on civilian targets? Who do you torture to get it? How far will you go, torturing someone for this information, when he may not even have it? And won't he just tell you anything to make the torture stop? The downsides far outweigh any benefits.

Quote:
We need to clarify what is and what is not. I know that certain terrorists have been tortured and would never even admit they have been tortured, because of the trickery they faced and the results it gave.


I think that knowingly inflicting physical or mental pain onto a prisoner of war, beyond what is necessary as a part of his stay in a less-than-comfortable POW camp, is torture, whether or not you are trying to elicit some information from him.
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xris
 
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Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 01:20 pm
@Pangloss,
So we have a difference of opinion on what is torture and what is not...thats the problem....I can tell you, I would torture,if it did not have long term harm , if it saved lives and I knew the prisoner that confronted me was prepared to kill innocent civilians. I would accept certain standards of interviewing but are they yours..We are debating beyond our understanding.
Pangloss
 
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Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 01:38 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:

I would torture,if it did not have long term harm , if it saved lives and I knew the prisoner that confronted me was prepared to kill innocent civilians.


The problem is that, in reality, you wouldn't know these things. Especially about long-term harm. You must consider long-term mental harm as well. Waterboarding done properly causes no long-term physical harm, but I would imagine (and have read) that the experience is very harmful in the long-term, psychologically.
xris
 
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Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 01:53 pm
@Pangloss,
It has everything to do with the reality of a given situation. Everything in life is dependant on the situation. I would not give a **** for the mental strain of a mass murderer if by torturing him I could save lives. I have experienced water boarding as an exercise. Granted I knew that it would not be taken to the extreme but its not like having your balls burnt or your finger nails pulled out.
Pangloss
 
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Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 02:06 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:

I have experienced water boarding as an exercise. Granted I knew that it would not be taken to the extreme but its not like having your balls burnt or your finger nails pulled out.


Totally different from experiencing it as real torture, when you know that you have no control and no one in that room who gives a damn about you...to be honest, I think I'd rather have my finger nails pulled than to continuously feel like I'm about to drown.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 02:34 pm
@Pangloss,
I dont think you would. That's why its used, its no where near as horrific. I'm not condoning it as a form of interrogation. The point is, what forms of interrogation is acceptable?
Pangloss
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 02:39 pm
@xris,
I've seen videos of waterboarding demonstrations, and I am sure that the experience is incredibly horrific. Simulated drowning is not something that you could mentally shake off anytime soon. Fingernail pulling, I can imagine is probably very painful, but it would not have the psychological effect on a person that possibly suffocating to death would.
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 04:52 pm
@H2O MAN,
Got any proof for this? I presented a 27 page paper--specifically on the Bush Administration torture program. If you could please give us some credible evidence that the Obama Administration has a torture program that experiments on all Americans, please do the right thing and share it. Otherwise, what you wrote is nothing but an empty, meaningless utterance that has no basis in reality.
Pangloss
 
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Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 05:39 pm
@Theaetetus,
Perhaps he means the torture we all endure when watching one of his speeches on television...only kidding...

Obama has really done nothing to end "extraordinary rendition" though; Bush-style torture of prisoners and "suspected terrorists" is ongoing.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 05:44 pm
@Theaetetus,
Theaetetus wrote:

Got any proof for this?


There is abundant proof that Obama and his administration are torturing the American people, just open your eyes and look around.
0 Replies
 
jcboy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 05:46 pm
I expected nothing less from the bush administration. Low life republiCON’s, all of them.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2010 07:29 pm
@Pangloss,
Pangloss wrote:

Perhaps he means the torture we all endure when watching one of his speeches on television...


PrezBO's speeches are increasingly hard to endure.
xris
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 02:38 am
@H2O MAN,
You mean they are intelligible, unlike Bushy baby's ignorant mumblings. I suppose as a republican hearing the truth is bit hard to stomach.
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 05:17 am
@Pangloss,
John Stuart may explain it best here, which is from Tuesday's show. It is really too bad that we continue renditions and various forms of torture.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-15-2010/respect-my-authoritah
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 05:41 am
@Theaetetus,
Quote:
This report is pretty condemning to the Bush Administration and their involvement of severe war crimes and crimes against humanity.


Whoever is responsible for the website you're quoting is a total flake and you don't need to look terribly hard at the site to come to that conclusion.

The simplest thing somebody in George W. Bush's position could have done after 9-11 would have been to use nuclear weapons on Mecca and Medina, and on major sections of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Anything less than that is charity.
Pangloss
 
  2  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 11:31 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

The simplest thing somebody in George W. Bush's position could have done after 9-11 would have been to use nuclear weapons on Mecca and Medina, and on major sections of Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Anything less than that is charity.


Such an enlightened viewpoint here...

Bush wouldn't nuke the middle east, if for no other reason than that it would have severely deleterious consequences for those in the middle east energy exploration business.
0 Replies
 
Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Jun, 2010 12:33 pm
@gungasnake,
I only quoted the site for the link to the 27-page report by the Physicians for Human Rights. It is pretty much irrelevant what the website says about the report when a link to the report has already been provided.
0 Replies
 
 

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