4
   

Let's debate the 3.14 event in Tibet

 
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:10 am
Raymond, Do you really think a government should be able to destroy the culture and belief system of a group of people? The Chinese have murdered thousands of Tibetans for defending their way of life. The Chinese have destroyed centuries worth of their art and civilization. There can be no good in that. Even when the Tibetans peacefully demonstrate they are taken off to Chinese prisons to be silenced. How can you defend that? I do not defend my country when my government does evil. Why do you defend the evil of yours?

Maybe the Tibetans don't want to work in dirty factories to make crap for Americans like the Chinese. Maybe Tibetans don't want their land polluted with the filth of Chinese style industrialization. Maybe the Tibetans don't want a life without spiritual purpose. Maybe Tibetans want to be free to express their opinions and live their lives in a way that brings them happiness. The Chinese Government has adopted the worst of Capitalism and the worst of Fascism. The CG want to control the minds of people and they are willing to kill when people fight back. They should leave Tibet alone and they keep their cruel policies out of Taiwan too. Maybe one day you will be able to search anything you want on your computer without your government censoring your information, and you will learn more about what evil is being done in the name of Chinese Nationalism - I hope for that day.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 06:21 am
What does any of this have to do with Pi?
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 08:10 am
fishin wrote:
What does any of this have to do with Pi?


pi sounds like a Tibetan name to me.


nice derail there fishin
0 Replies
 
raymond chan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 10:53 am
Green Witch wrote:
Raymond, Do you really think a government should be able to destroy the culture and belief system of a group of people? The Chinese have murdered thousands of Tibetans for defending their way of life. The Chinese have destroyed centuries worth of their art and civilization. There can be no good in that. Even when the Tibetans peacefully demonstrate they are taken off to Chinese prisons to be silenced. How can you defend that? I do not defend my country when my government does evil. Why do you defend the evil of yours?

Maybe the Tibetans don't want to work in dirty factories to make crap for Americans like the Chinese. Maybe Tibetans don't want their land polluted with the filth of Chinese style industrialization. Maybe the Tibetans don't want a life without spiritual purpose. Maybe Tibetans want to be free to express their opinions and live their lives in a way that brings them happiness. The Chinese Government has adopted the worst of Capitalism and the worst of Fascism. The CG want to control the minds of people and they are willing to kill when people fight back. They should leave Tibet alone and they keep their cruel policies out of Taiwan too. Maybe one day you will be able to search anything you want on your computer without your government censoring your information, and you will learn more about what evil is being done in the name of Chinese Nationalism - I hope for that day.


How did the government destroy the culture and belief system?
The government helped the Tibetans to build the infrastructure,gave them money to rebuild their temples.
Without this,they are NOTHING!!
The GDP of Tibet is almost the lowest in China!
If free Tibet,this situation is gonna be worse,everyone would be suffering from starvation!No more civilization in Tibet then!
We always allow them believe in what they believe.
There is just a small number of Tibetans want to free Tibet.
If they can vote,I believe most of Tibetans would not be apart from China!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 11:09 am
It has already been pointed out to you that providing infrastructure is meaningless if the people to whom you provide it don't want you in their country. See DP's comments about Tibet and East Timor.

The entire concept of national self-determination negates any economic arguments you might make. If the Tibetans were given a fair and open choice, not one which flows from the barrel of a Chinese gun, they might well choose freedom and poverty. That is their right.
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 11:38 am
raymond chan wrote:

The government helped the Tibetans to build the infrastructure,gave them money to rebuild their temples.


Would it have been necessary of China to have given them money rebuild the temples if they hadn't blown them up to begin with?? And of course, they only gave money to rebuild temples that followed along with the Panchen Lama - who was appointed by the Chinese government. What about the temples of those who follow the Dalai Lama?
0 Replies
 
fishin
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 11:56 am
Now, back to the purpose of this thread: Let's talk about Tibetan Yak Meat Pie!

http://k43.pbase.com/o4/78/587478/1/53747115.day1CRW_7703.jpg
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 02:51 pm
raymond chan wrote:

How did the government destroy the culture and belief system?
The government helped the Tibetans to build the infrastructure,gave them money to rebuild their temples.
Without this,they are NOTHING!!
The GDP of Tibet is almost the lowest in China!
If free Tibet,this situation is gonna be worse,everyone would be suffering from starvation!No more civilization in Tibet then!
We always allow them believe in what they believe.
There is just a small number of Tibetans want to free Tibet.
If they can vote,I believe most of Tibetans would not be apart from China!


Sorry Raymond, but this proves to me you know nothing about the history of China and Tibet. You know nothing about Tibetans, their culture, their civilization or what they want as a separate ethnic group. Everything you wrote is Chinese propaganda, but the world knows the truth, only the Chinese people are kept ignorant by their government.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Apr, 2008 03:25 pm
I think Raymond's position is kind of funny (in a world weary sort of way). I think of the irony of that 1970s stereotype of the Chinese embassy referring to 'the running dogs of US imperialism'.
0 Replies
 
luping385461
 
  0  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 03:40 am
tibet
The monks killed other persons and burn the shop.Doesn't it need to stop it?
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 06:56 am
Re: tibet
luping385461 wrote:
The monks killed other persons and burn the shop.Doesn't it need to stop it?


Since most non-chinese don't know what you are talking about:

This refers to cases where the "protesters" set fire to Chinese shops and burnt the workers alive inside.

And yes, of course that kind of violence needs to stop. But if China didn't try to manage the media the Western coverage of Tibet wouldn't be so intentionally one-sided right now (e.g. the media entities that keep repeating that "protests started peacefully and became violent 4-days later" know damn well that at the beginning Chinese authorities tried to work with a less heavy hand and that the violence was initiated by the Tibetans but word nearly all their articles to make it sound like the violence is all happening on the part of the Chinese).

China is to blame for denying its people the right to free speech, and a free press. If China did not do those kind of things to limit personal freedom Tibetan separatists would have nearly no support.

But China denies freedom of religion, speech and the press and stupidly fans the flames.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 07:31 am
hawkeye10 wrote:

That has not been documented to my standards yet, and even if true it needs to be taken in the contexts of the Tibetan history of non violence.


It's been documented just as well as any other of the events happening there that you don't question. Heck if you aren't sure that Tibetans started murdering Chinese what do you think the Dalai Lama was talking about when he said that he'd resign the less important of his positions if it didn't stop?

And as to taking it into context, while you do so consider that regardless of context, when people start racial riots and kill others the government has a moral obligation to stop them, regardless of whatever you think this previous "context" gives to the bigger picture.

Quote:
I am fully aware that some Tibetans are calling for violence in the name of the cause, but how many want this is unknown.


So? You don't know how many Chinese are involved either and it doesn't matter how many of them were killing people, those who were needed to be stopped by force.

Quote:
It this point the call for violence is new, and seems to be not the common opinion, thus it is not fair to tag all Tibetans with what ever violence took place this month.


While others can fret about what to "tag" people now in the larger context of this dispute the Chinese military and police needed to employ force to protect their citizens from the violence that was ongoing.

There wasn't a "call for violence" problem. There was a "hundreds to thousands of Tibetans are actively participating in violence" problem that was already killing people when they changed their position.

Whatever one's feelings about the Tibetan cause, these "protesters" (helluva euphemism) needed to be stopped. There is no justification to start murdering civilians.

In this uprising the Chinese use of force was reserved and late and they have a legitimate bone to pick with Western media for the way it's being reported.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Apr, 2008 08:42 pm
For Ray and Luping - who, if they are in China, can't follow This Link to the original

Whatever China does, Tibet will still demand its freedom
Guardian[Sunday, March 16, 2008 11:46]
by Ed Douglas

Beijing can be benevolent or brutal, but it will find that national identity lies at the heart of Tibetan demands for self-determination

Putting the Olympic flame on the summit of Mount Everest must have seemed a great idea to the planning committee of the Beijing Olympics. What better expression of China's inexorable rise to superpower status could there be? Everest was the crowning glory for the Queen in 1953. So it would be for China's political elite.

Now the game is up. On Friday, a friend who organises expeditions to Everest called me on his way to Katmandu for the start of the climbing season. He had just heard that the Nepalese authorities, at China's request, had decided to stop climbers going on the mountain until after those carrying the Olympic flame had been and gone.

It was, on China's part, an act of frantic paranoia. Beijing had only just banned foreign climbers from China's side of the mountain, fearing pro-Tibet demonstrations. Now Beijing was bullying Nepal, distracted by a chaotic election campaign, to do China's bidding. China recently offered Nepal £100m for two new hydroelectric dams and increasingly calls the tune in Katmandu, so there wasn't much argument.

With people dying in Lhasa and Tibetan exiles agitating in India and Nepal, what happens to a bunch of Western tourists may not seem so important. True, people living around Everest will lose a lot of money, but that's no big deal in the scheme of things. It's what this says about China's position in Tibet which is so revealing. In a matter of days, the self-assurance of a regime that promised to light a beacon to the world on the summit of Everest has been utterly undermined. For the last 60 years of Chinese occupation and colonialism, the Tibetan people have been starved, murdered, tortured, imprisoned and marginalised in their own land.

But even now, after decades of effort to subjugate Tibet, the Chinese authorities couldn't guarantee that they wouldn't be humiliated in Tibet's most remote, and easily controlled, location - the slopes of the peak Tibetans call Chomolungma. Rather than have Western climbers unfurling banners to demand a free Tibet during a live broadcast beamed around the world, they have preferred the embarrassment of closing the peak to outsiders, as they did until 1980, four years after Mao's death. It's an admission of failure. It must be galling for Beijing. Following violence in the late 1980s and another period of dreadful human-rights abuses, the Communist party had embarked on a policy of colossal capital investment in Tibet to develop its sclerotic economy. If old-school oppression didn't work, why not try consumerism?

Leaving aside the inequalities between Tibetans and migrant Han Chinese, there's no question that the Chinese have done a huge amount to improve the economic conditions of the indigenous population. Drive along the highway between Lhasa and Shigatse, seat of the disputed Panchen Lama, number two in the Tibetan Buddhist hierarchy, and you can see bright new houses being built to replace the smoky hovels many Tibetans used to occupy. True, part of this resettlement programme is aimed at settling nomadic herders whose mobility threatens China's grip. China recalls how nomads in eastern Tibet put up strong resistance following the invasion in 1950. But it would be a gross caricature to deny China's attempts to bring economic development to a disadvantaged region.

China says it has rehoused 10 per cent of Tibet's population in 2006, building 279,000 new homes. Now that's progress. The high-tech, high-altitude railway, opened in 2006 and tying China more firmly to its Tibetan fiefdom, has brought a wave of new investment along with more migration. When I first visited Lhasa in 1993, people still defecated in the street. Now it is a modern and much bigger city, albeit a largely Chinese one.

Tibet campaigners often argue that this combination of investment and migration will swamp Tibetan's ancient culture and snuff out resistance to China's annexation. If that was the plan, it seems to have failed. Beijing predictably blamed the Dalai Lama and his 'splittist clique' for masterminding the riots that gripped Lhasa last week. But reports filtering out from the Jokhang temple area, the holiest of holies for Tibetan Buddhists, suggest the anger on the streets is real and instinctive. It is the resentment Tibetans feel at the inequality they face in their day-to-day lives.

Life might have got better for some Tibetans, but they see Han Chinese migrants doing a whole lot better and at their expense. The new railway might bring more money to Lhasa, but it is also carrying back Tibet's vast mineral deposits and timber to feed China's galloping economic growth.

It's inevitable, given his huge profile and the popularity of his cause, that many Westerners see the Dalai Lama and Tibet as synonymous. The Dalai Lama remains a source of hope for many Tibetans, but beneath the charm and exoticism of his story, Tibet's agonies should be familiar ground to any student of colonialism. It is that inequality, and the despair it brings, that feeds Tibet's resistance.

But Beijing is fixated by a personal and bitter campaign against a man regarded as an icon around the world. Rather than allow the possibility that he has influence inside Tibet, and affection outside it, China courts ridicule by peddling transparently false statements about him. An example. In November, the Dalai Lama used his prerogative as a reincarnate lama to suggest his rebirth wouldn't take place within Tibet.

He has said this before, but the statement launched a typically petulant response from Beijing, suggesting the Dalai Lama's statement 'violated [the] religious rituals and historical conventions of Tibetan Buddhism'. Given the wholesale destruction of monasteries in the 1950s and 1960s, and renewed efforts in the 1990s to crack down on religious freedoms, and the strict controls placed on monks within Tibet, the idea that atheist Beijing should offer advice on the traditions of Tibetan Buddhism was understandably laughed off by the Dalai Lama's office.

China must hope, and friends of Tibet must fear, that when the Dalai Lama dies, much of the momentum towards Tibet's eventual freedom will die with him. Don't count on it. Tibet will still be a country that is ethnically and culturally very different from China. It's not a question of preserving Tibet's ancient culture; that hangs on in remote villages, but it's mostly gone in Lhasa. It would have changed anyway. Mobile phones and the internet would have undermined Tibet's oppressively religious polity, already being reformed by the current Dalai Lama, just as they are doing to China's version of communism.

It's a question of identity. The fact remains that Tibetans feel Tibetan. No amount of economic development will change that. It's also true that China is implacable in its determination to stay put. Only a settlement that allows Tibetans genuine freedoms and economic equality will bring lasting peace. And that means meaningful agreements with the Dalai Lama. Only then will Tibetans begin to trust the Chinese.

Right now, China is stoking a future of ethnic conflict that will take generations and huge resources to solve. That conflict is deeply damaging to China's image abroad as a progressive and modern country. The real question is what does China have to fear from a more independent Tibet? It is the risk of difference, of heterogeneity that frightens China - a fear of multiculturalism.

The above article appeared in the Observer on Sunday March 16 2008 on p35 of the Comment section.
0 Replies
 
sshjj
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2008 12:20 am
Absolute terrorism,No any doubt!
some peoples lost their life in fire which the brutal man ignited.and some people lost their property,further harmless people were punch in street!!!
0 Replies
 
sshjj
 
  0  
Reply Fri 11 Apr, 2008 12:34 am
Green Witch wrote:
raymond chan wrote:

How did the government destroy the culture and belief system?
The government helped the Tibetans to build the infrastructure,gave them money to rebuild their temples.
Without this,they are NOTHING!!
The GDP of Tibet is almost the lowest in China!
If free Tibet,this situation is gonna be worse,everyone would be suffering from starvation!No more civilization in Tibet then!
We always allow them believe in what they believe.
There is just a small number of Tibetans want to free Tibet.
If they can vote,I believe most of Tibetans would not be apart from China!


Sorry Raymond, but this proves to me you know nothing about the history of China and Tibet. You know nothing about Tibetans, their culture, their civilization or what they want as a separate ethnic group. Everything you wrote is Chinese propaganda, but the world knows the truth, only the Chinese people are kept ignorant by their government.





Sorry i think that you know nothing about China and tibet's history
0 Replies
 
Kayyam
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 May, 2008 12:24 am
Hello there all,

Tibetans are angry at Beijing and for good reason. For a half century they have been brutalized and subjected to religious and cultural abuse which is just absurd (the Panchen Lama!?!?). Beijing amplifies the violence committed by a few Tibetans in March and hides its own violent record.

In the end it is not about money, it is about human dignity. Tibetans are not taking the bribe (much of which, by the way, is going to Han carpetbaggers). How many Han died in the March riots? We will never know because real reporters are not allowed in the province. How many Tibetans were killed by the police during those same riots? Again we will never know. The statements regularly issued by Beijing about the Dalai Lama, the history of Tibet or recent protests make you laugh derisively and then make you weep.

Nothing can justify the random violence against Han and Hui in March. But sadly that was the unavoidable explosion of fury against Beijing for longstanding crimes against humanity and manipulation.

Beijing, your credibility is zero. We do not believe anything you say. I am saddened by the tarnishing of the olympics. But due to China's over-reaction I am inclined to ignore the games.

/Kayyam
0 Replies
 
tuppence
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 May, 2008 09:54 am
I am from china too. I think what we need is communication, not evidences. The world should be together peacefully. I hate any violence. Maybe I am naive,but I still insist on my viewpoint.
0 Replies
 
avrillavigne
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 03:46 am
@hingehead,
you were fooled by fake photos presented by CNN.
hingehead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 09:29 pm
@avrillavigne,
Oh sweetie, I didn't, and don't, have access to CNN. But I do have access to the peer reviewed literature available to a university and a world of media content via the web.

So what's your take on luna landings and the holocaust?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Oct, 2008 09:41 pm
re those claiming to be Chinese; isn't it true that computers in China are blocked from a2k? If so how do you get here?
0 Replies
 
 

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