Guantanamo suicides confirmed

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Why don't you just admit that you condone torture?
Get it out into the open

I can tell you now that Bush allowing torture has done our troops no favours. If captured, how can we demand they be treated as POWs under the Geneva Conventions - the right of every soldier in war?

Torture has weakened us and empowered our enemies.

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@Endymion,

Endymion wrote:

I can tell you now that Bush allowing torture has done our troops no favours. If captured, how can we demand they be treated as POWs under the Geneva Conventions - the right of every soldier in war?

Torture has weakened us and empowered our enemies.

Our enemies have always tortured our soldiers upon capture.

That is nothing new.

(I should note that unlike our soldiers, unlawful combatants do not qualify for POW status under Geneva 3 of 1949.)

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@oralloy,

Quote:

Our enemies have always tortured our soldiers upon capture.

Not true

U.S. Army Specialist Shoshana Johnson spent 22 days as a prisoner of war - right at the beginning of the invasion of Iraq. She was not abused in any way and she was seen by an Iraqi doctor.

Of course, that was before the photographs of Iraqis being tortured and sexually abused swept the internet.

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@Endymion,

Endymion wrote:

Oralloy wrote:
Our enemies have always tortured our soldiers upon capture.

Not true

U.S. Army Specialist Shoshana Johnson spent 22 days as a prisoner of war - right at the beginning of the invasion of Iraq. She was not abused in any way and she was seen by an Iraqi doctor.

Of course, that was before the photographs of Iraqis being tortured and sexually abused swept the internet.

They were tortured in Iraq in the 1991 war.

And in the Vietnam War.

And in the Korean War.

And in WWII, Japanese treatment of our POWs went way beyond torture.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

And in WWII, Japanese treatment of our POWs went way beyond torture.

What does this mean?

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@Steve 41oo,

Steve 41oo wrote:

oralloy wrote:
And in WWII, Japanese treatment of our POWs went way beyond torture.

What does this mean?

Some of them were tied down to tables and dissected alive (without anesthesia).

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Yes, so why would we ever want to be like that? We know how we feel about past torture done to us and others... i mean, we know how we look upon those who have tortured...why would we want others to see us like that?

Torture is an abuse of humanity and if we pick up where the Japanese left off - how does that honour the men (and i'm thinking of the British in Burma) who were tortured back then?

If we condone torture now - don't we condone torture from the past?

Fuck that

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@Endymion,

Endymion wrote:

Yes, so why would we ever want to be like that? We know how we feel about past torture done to us and others... i mean, we know how we look upon those who have tortured...why would we want others to see us like that?

Torture is an abuse of humanity and if we pick up where the Japanese left off - how does that honour the men (and i'm thinking of the British in Burma) who were tortured back then?

If we condone torture now - don't we condone torture from the past?

I don't think we are going to get anywhere close to what Japan did, much less "pick up where they left off".

At any rate, the serious CIA torture (which happened in Europe, not at Guantanamo) is over now. So what's the problem?

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@oralloy,

My reply wasn't to your last post - the one before.

I've said what i needed to say

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:
oralloy wrote:
And in WWII, Japanese treatment of our POWs went way beyond torture.

What does this mean?

Some of them were tied down to tables and dissected alive (without anesthesia).

That wasnt torture it was a scientific experiment, as was your dropping of atomic bombs on the Japanese.

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@Steve 41oo,

Steve 41oo wrote:

it was a scientific experiment, as was your dropping of atomic bombs on the Japanese.

The point of the A-bombs was to make Japan surrender -- something they had steadfastly refused to do until after the second A-bomb had been dropped.

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@oralloy,

oralloy wrote:

Steve 41oo wrote:
it was a scientific experiment, as was your dropping of atomic bombs on the Japanese.

The point of the A-bombs was to make Japan surrender -- something they had steadfastly refused to do until after the second A-bomb had been dropped.

...something they had been trying to do for months but would never do without re-assurances about the fate of the Emperor. After the second bomb Truman said "no more" and let it be known that Hirohito would be treated as a constitutional monarch, (not a war criminal as he should have been). Japan immediately surrendered. I'm surprised you don't know these things oralloy.

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@Steve 41oo,

Steve 41oo wrote:

oralloy wrote:
Steve 41oo wrote:
it was a scientific experiment, as was your dropping of atomic bombs on the Japanese.

The point of the A-bombs was to make Japan surrender -- something they had steadfastly refused to do until after the second A-bomb had been dropped.

...something they had been trying to do for months but would never do without re-assurances about the fate of the Emperor.

Japan did not try to surrender "with a guarantee for the Emperor" until both A-bombs were dropped.

Japan did not try to surrender in any form whatsoever until both A-bombs were dropped.

Steve 41oo wrote:

After the second bomb Truman said "no more" and let it be known that Hirohito would be treated as a constitutional monarch,

Only after Japan asked to surrender with a guarantee for the Emperor, which they only asked after both A-bombs had been dropped.

(Truman didn't give them any binding promises for the Emperor, and the surrender terms gave MacArthur the power to depose the Emperor if necessary.)

Steve 41oo wrote:

(not a war criminal as he should have been).

Hirohito's culpability, lack thereof, and even degree of culpability, are all vigorously debated by historians, with many intelligent positions on all sides.

Steve 41oo wrote:

Japan immediately surrendered.

Well, it took them a day or so, and an aborted coup from the "fight to the death" extremist faction, but they did manage to do it.

Steve 41oo wrote:

I'm surprised you don't know these things oralloy.

Know about surrender attempts before the A-bombs???

How can someone know about something that doesn't exist?

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@oralloy,

oralloy- The best research on Japan has been done by John Toland in his two volume work--"The Rising Sun" See Volume 2--P. 925. The OFFICIAL Japanese position by the Supreme Command on June 6, 1945 was--

"With a faith born of eternal loyalty as our inspiration, we shall--thanks to the advantages of our terrain and the unity of our nation--PROSECUTE THE WAR TO THE BITTER END IN ORDER TO UPHOLD OUR KOKUTAI( NATIONAL ESSENCE) protect the imperial landa nd achieve our goals of conquest>"

There were some in Japan who wished for peace but there was a fierce Japanese resistance to "Unconditional Surrender"

quote:

P. 936

"Should the US and Great Britain insist on Unconditional Surrender, Japan will be forced to fight to the end with all her might to vindicate her honor and safeguard her national existence."

So you are right Oralloy. There were no credible surrender attempts until the bombs were dropped because the Japanese knew that the USA and, significantly, the Soviet Union,wouldaccept nothing except Unconditional Surrender.

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Guantanamo suicides confirmed

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