What should be done about illegal immigration?

Tags: Politics, Immigration, Racism, White Supremacy, Bigotry
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Foxfyre wrote:

-we should amend the Constitution to add a requirement that at least one parent must be a U.S. citizen in order for a child born in this country to receive automatic citizenship.

I remember that the the differences between the US' ius soli and ius sanguines and the modified versions of both have been discussed here a couple of times during the last years ...

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Foxfyre, when will you accept the reality that we live in a democracy?

The problem with your views on immigration is that they have been consistently losing elections. There is a small, but vocal, group that are pushing this issue for whatever reason-- but it continues to lose ground.

The ethnic parts of your immigration views, especially the "English only" stuff have nothing to do with any of the other immigration issue (i.e. jobs, rule of law or spending) and really upset an important part of the electorate whose members (although you may not think it fair) have a vote exactly equal to yours. This combined with the clearly racial parts of the argument are real political losers.

The fact the American electorate will never allow an English only law... and we will never accept the Constitutional change to strip citizenship from babies. Not only will these things never happen, that they are being attempted upsets a large number of American voters.

The irony is that this issue is at the forefront of the demise of the conservative movement (and the part of the Republican party they represent).

At some point there will be a more progressive immigration policy enacted that will focus on compassion instead of enforcement. It will almost certainly contain a path to citizenship (as well as moderate border security provisions that probably you and I would agree on).

The longer the right blocks this-- the more it will hurt the Republican party and the conservative movement in general.

That being said... I still think we should resolve this sooner rather than later.

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I disagree. We don't live in a 'democracy' but rather a democratically elected representative republic. We intended ourselves to be a people of laws that would produce a more perfect union and protect unalienable God-given rights of the people. When we operate outside of that concept, in my opinion it is generally detrimental to everybody. Allowing persons to violate the immigration laws with impunity is as destructive as ignoring any other necessary laws.

However, our representative republic does depend on the consent of the people for the laws that we enact and enforce. I believe a substantial majority of Americans do want the immigration laws strengthened and enforced and that if we put it to a vote, English would be the official language of the nation. I don't advocate English only except in legal matters--I don't care what language people choose to speak among themselves--but I do believe that it is to the benefit of all our citizens that all be able to communicate in one common language.

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@Foxfyre,

Quote:

We don't live in a 'democracy' but rather a democratically elected representative republic.

Fine. The democratically elected representatives who have been getting democratically elected tend not to be the ones who share your views.

If people who shared your views were being democratically elected... then the policies you support would be implemented without problem-- except they are not.

Quote:

Allowing persons to violate the immigration laws with impunity is as destructive as ignoring any other necessary laws.

This is a ridiculous thing to say.

Obviously someone who commits rape is far more destructive than someone who smokes a joint-- just as someone who commits murder is more destructive than someone who illegally serves you a hamburger.

Quote:

... our representative republic does depend on the consent of the people for the laws that we enact and enforce.

And that is the point. The immigration law will be made by the representatives that we elected. If punishing illegal immigrants were that important to most voters, we would have different representatives. That's how democracy works.

The problem is that in our representative democracy, we allow a vocal minority to slow down the progress of the majority (I am not saying this is always a bad thing).

All real movement toward a moderate immigration compromise (at least nationally) has been blocked by the Republicans acting on behalf of the right wing.

Now politically the Republicans are paying for this in the ballot box. This is a slow process, but that's how Democracy works.

At some point we will arrive at a fairly progressive immigration solution.

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@teenyboone,

teenyboone wrote:

I agree! Fine them heavily and the employers who hire these illegals.

I can understand fining their employers
IF u can get past the question of HOW thay were supposed to KNOW,
but I suspect an insolvency problem as to the illegal aliens.

The only penalty I can think of is whipping them,
to DISSUADE them from laffing it off n coming back AGAIN.

Thay ofen ADMIT openly that thay will come back here; Y not admit it?

Females n young boys shoud not be whipped.

David

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Quote:
nd then breed, after thay r here, thereby influencing our political demografics.

Did you breed, David? (I shure hope not).

Yeah, well we AGREE on that, e.

I have no children, so far as I know.
I 'd be horrified to find out differently.

David

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@OmSigDAVID,

Are you serious? Whipping them? Do you believe in torture too?

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@teenyboone,

teenyboone wrote:

Are you serious? Whipping them? Do you believe in torture too?

Whipping them IS torture, especially if u apply salt.
SOMETHING has to be done
that is successfully DISSUASIVE of their coming here,
and is also consistent with deporting them SWIFTLY
as distinct from keeping them in a jail at OUR expense
for a long time.

David

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

--we should amend the Constitution to add a requirement
that at least one parent must be a U.S. citizen in order for a child
born in this country to receive automatic citizenship.

YES.
That 's ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
Let s add that the new citizen be born
from a marriage, not just casual sex nor rape.

It shoud have been done long ago.

David

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@Foxfyre,

You've certainly come up with a marvellously Soviet approach to the problem there, Foxfyre.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

You've certainly come up with a marvellously Soviet approach to the problem there, Foxfyre.

The aliens have NO RIGHTS here, Beth.

Their status here is only criminal
because thay defeated the efforts of our Border Patrol.

"Ex turpe suo actio non uritur"; a right does not arise from a rong.

David

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

You've certainly come up with a marvellously Soviet approach to the problem there, Foxfyre.

Really? You think so? Assuming that you intended to be uncomplimentary and a criticism, could you please elaborate on any point expressed and explain how it is unkind, unreasonable, or Soviet like and what you think would be the better policy?

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@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

I have no children, so far as I know.
I 'd be horrified to find out differently.

You're a lucky man Dave assuming you're not a priest. Flaubert said he would rather be thrown in the river with a stone round his neck that have any kids.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
I have no children, so far as I know.
I 'd be horrified to find out differently.

You're a lucky man Dave assuming you're not a priest.

Flaubert said he would rather be thrown in the river
with a stone round his neck that have any kids.

Agreed; that is a good assumption.
I don 't dislike people based upon their ages,
but I discriminate upon the basis of their conduct.

Generally, I think children are fine,
as long as thay r not genetically related to ME.

David

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@ebrown p,

ebrown p wrote:

Foxfyre, when will you accept the reality that we live in a democracy?

I don't see what democracy has to do with an inability to amend the constitution. It's been done before.

ebrown p wrote:

The fact the American electorate will never allow an English only law... and we will never accept the Constitutional change to strip citizenship from babies. Not only will these things never happen, that they are being attempted upsets a large number of American voters.?

Now, I never heard mention of such a change being retroactive. Nobody's stripping anything from anybody.

[/quote]

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Granted our borders must be strong, and "illegals" and their "employers" must be dealt with--whatever that means. But we shouldn't forget that the VAST majority of "illegals" from latin america come here to be exploited, to work, not to steal. They leave their towns and villages to undergo lonely and dangerous trips in order to feed their families. Do what we must, but with sympathy. Someday we may be in their shoes.

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@JLNobody,

I can't argue with that JLN. In my immediately previous occupation I dealt with a lot of illegals. Some were really neat people I would be proud to call friend. Some--fortunately a small minority--were truly evil and I don't think should be allowed into any country. In short, these are just people, tall, short, smart, dumb, good, bad like any other people are. I don't think anybody who has taken a 'strengthen and enforce the immigration laws' position on this thread seriously wants to be cruel or unkind to anybody.

But we are a people of laws and when that is no longer the case, we will be a very different country than we are now; perhaps one that people would want to escape from instead of move into. We can accomplish so much that is good for the world if we remain strong and innovative and a competent nation that we have been and that has made us great. We serve nobody well if we foolishly allow ourselves to be unwisely exploited and thus diminish and weaken ourselves. There are times that tough love is indeed the highest form of love.

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I just read that the unemployment rate, which is soaring, for blacks is double that of other races. I suspect that, for obvious reasons, employers are favoring illegals. I think this is another good reason to clamp down on illegal aliens, keeping them out of the country and expelling those already in. Our own citizens should come first.

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@OmSigDAVID,

Where in the immigration laws that it says that the child of an illegal alien has any rights?

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@teenyboone,

This is settled law-- the Constitution says they have rights and the courts say they have rights.

First the 14th amendment says that anyone born in US territory is a US citizen. In spite of how much right wingerswhine about this, it has been upheld by numerous courts and is now accepted law.

Second the Supreme Court has ruled definitively that all children living in the US, whether they are here legally or not, have the right to an education.

Third, no matter what wet dreams right winger have, anyone here has basic civil rights. You can't shoot them. They can expect the police to protect you from them. If you are married to one, you can't batter them. They are protected by basic Constitutional rights including those in the Bill of Rights.

It is ironic how the right wingers who say they are for "rule of law" are so eager to turn against any law that protects people they hate.

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What should be done about illegal immigration?

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