A heretic in the temple of self esteem

I concur boom...but then again, I think you knew I would.

Feeling a healthy respect for yourself, and liking yourself, is great.

HOWEVER...we have to realize that we are not "super terrific fantastic" in everything we do.

It is discouraging to see adults AND children who want a medal or something because they are doing something that either just needs to get done, or are doing something no better or worse than anyone else.

For me, while I'm learning something new, hearing something to the effect of "You're going in the right direction" is sufficient. I know I'm, well, headed in the right way, and if something goes awry, I expect to be told I'm going off the path.

Getting used to hearing constant praise reinforcement I believe causes the person to constantly be thinking about "me, me, me"...this may not be apparant until they are in a situation where the praise isn't given...Then, the wondering starts "What wrong with ME?"

That's the situation when a group are working together, all doing the same level of activity, but there's one, no better or worse, that feels their endeavors need to be singled out.

I occurs to me that parents should have a standard of behavior within which the child is expected to operate. So long as the child operates within that frame of reference, they are subject to be praised for accomplishment which is genuine. For example, a child who ties his or her own shoes when that is a newly taught skill deserves praise--a child who is expected to dress him or herself and get on with the daily business of life not only would deserve no especial praise for having done so, but would justifiably be subject to censure for failing to do what they are known to be able to do, and are reasonably expected to do.

I had an employer who used to confer "attaboys" and "ohshits." Without going into his family's psychology, he got this from his father, and had an unhealthy relationship with his father, in my never humble opinion. However, his thesis was that it takes ten "attaboys" to wipe out one "ohshit," and that ordinary performance (showing up at work on time) deserves no praise. He'd not have commented negatively necessarily, but any move on the part of the employee at self-congratulation would garner a comment about a failure to demonstrate timeliness.

I worked closely with him, as i was his business manager. Employees who enraged him, and who had long worn out their welcome, nevertheless remained in his employ--until they finally pushed things too far. Then he'd want to go throw them through the nearest window. I'd have to intervene, pointing out that the company could not afford a lawsuit, and forcing him to take a series of disciplinary steps which would lead to dismissal (i've never seen an employee who pushed things to the point of formal disciplinary procedure who did not sooner or later push it all the way to justified dismissal--we were never sued, and we often successfully fought off unemployment claims [one cannot claim unemployment compensation for a specific period of time after dismissal if one is justly dismissed for cause]) In fact, i think in an unconscious reaction to his severe and unreasoning father, he had a tendancy to vent his temper elsewhere, and tolerate unacceptable employee behavior for too long. Invariably, the emotion of surprise was most notable in the employee who first recieved formal disciplinary action--it had never occured to them that they could not have continually gotten away with a lax attitude.

In the case of this man, i think that had his father given more praise in his childhood, even within a framework of strict adherence to behavioral standards, he'd have had a more effectively balanced approach to his employees. As it was, he was spared both from unacceptable displays of temper and eternally tolerating intolerable employee behavior because his intelligence allowed him to step outside his own head to evaluate--although it usally was proceeded by too long suffering and too many misdirected fits of temper.

Children and dogs want you to be in charge, but if you don't take charge, they will attempt to do so. Children and dogs are happier when you are in charge and demonstrate as much. Within a well-defined structure in which all know what is expected of them, the sting of rebuke is lessened, and the joy of praise is sweetened.

That's my story, an' i'm stickin' to it.

Unbridled anything is generally unhealthy, in my experience. We raised our kids with praise and love tempered with a smaller amount of criticism and correction (and the occasional good old fashioned chewing out). The results speak for themsleves-- the oldest son is attending UC and wants to go to medical school, the middle son just got accepted to UC for undergrad work and is planning on a career in physics, and my daughter is a well behaved, well spoken 9 year old who loves art, horses and computers.

I believe there is another dimension to this, and that is how the criticism (or praise) is given. In both dealing with my children and in work situations I have learned (both through my mistakes and effective things I have done) that criticism can be an uplifting thing, and that the absence of criticism, when unsatisfactory behavior has occurred, can itself be a very insidiously corrosive thing.

One knows when he/she has done something badly or wrong. The absence of any feedback in such situations can subtly be interpreted as itself a message that what one does isn't particularly important to the parent or boss. This can be a worse outcome than criticism constructively given - particularly if it continues.

In a corresponding way, criticism that focuses on the deed (or the absence of action) instead of the person can be positively motivating, pareticularly if it is accompanyied by reminders of how important the person in question is to the parent or boss and the group or family.

I agree that excess praise can cheapen its value, particularly in the absence of constructive criticism as described above, and, in the worst case, breed a kind of childish self-centeredness in the one habituated to ghetting it. I also agree that abusive criticism, as Setanta illustrated, does no good, and, as he implied, can lead to risky or foolish action.

This is a very satisfying conversation and I thank you all for your replies.

Please know that I am reading but refraining from responding for just a bit longer....

I totally agree - the current dumbing down in some areas and praise for mediocrity doesn't do anyone any favours.

Praise has no value if it is given for everything. An ability to take constructive criticism is essential for learning and growth. it leads to prima donna stage-school type kids, forever demanding adulation and totally unable to accept that sometimes they aren't so good, don't have a talent for something, haven't worked hard enough or someone else is actually better!

Criticism should be constructive though and the child should understand why and what is wrong and can be done about it - or not if the talent isn't there.

My friend's son had a very high IQ and was used to coming top in everything at school when he was about 8 - then he tried judo and had no natural talent, just an average ability. It came as a bit of a shock to him and she felt it did him the world of good! He had to work hard (which he didn't normally as everything came easily) and that was just to be 'ok', whereas a friend with a lower ability at reading etc was very good.

And of course praise is essential but needs to be earned and worthwhile.

Yup. Everyone has contributed another aspect to this issue; and I agree with it all.

The first thing that came to mind was a particular old friend of mine who was raised with unbridled praise. Criticism was never heard, and was thought to be 'a stifling of T's self-expression'. He is now a grown-up brat, who has poor skills dealing with structured employment, adults in positions of equal power, and challenge in general. He lives at home with his mamma. He is a lot of fun, but also a lot of work to be around.

Has anyone else here heard of "Everybody Wins Class" in schools? There is a little man who I baby-sat off and on for a good many years. He is now 8. His physical education consists of games and sports where the competition is neutralized. Everybody Wins! My blood boils even thinking about it now. The idea is to build self-esteem by letting all the kids win. (Yeah, right.) He finds it extremely difficult to not 'win' at everything, and starts crying or goes to a corner to sulk when he is not praised for being the 'best' 'winner' 'great job' when we are doing activities together. This is further deepened by a mother who does not believe in Criticism (constructive or otherwise).

Praise needs to be genuine and fair, as does critism. It's how we learn we are trusted and can depend on ourselves for the answers.

I get very upset thinking of what kind of challenges lie ahead for this wonderful boy. He has not had the opportunity to stretch out and see for himself his own abilities. His self esteem is suffering, and he is missing out on that sense of self reliance which comes from trying hard and not always seceding.

In work, I find that I receive far more respect by giving critism when necessary. It has to be done tactfully, but it is good for everybody. I have learned, through my own struggles with taking critism, that it can be a blessing! I am better at what I do by listening to other perspectives.

Of course, there is also the skill of learning to shut off and ignore unfair and ignorant critism.

What I observe is a curious combination between the "everyone wins"/"every child is an honor student" (from elementary school all th eway up to a high school with 50 valedictorians) and the hyper-competitive kids but particularly parents you seem in what competitions do still remain. Seems to me the former creates kids with ridiculously inflated senses of their skills, which spills over into notions of entitlement and what they expect from life, and the latter creates kids who have no notion of fair play once they are actually in a competitive situation.

very true


I think it is important for a child to realise that there are things that they aren't good at and that there are ways of dealing with that - either work very very hard if it matters to them a lot, or is something they really need to be able to deal with, or occasionally accept that it is something that they have no gift for, it doesn't matter - they can do other stuff and can't be good at everything.

My view of self esteem is that it is built partly from bricks consisting of reality based achievements, not phantom ones.

Perhaps I'm not such a heretic after all! I really expected more criticism on this idea.

I think we all know the dager posed to the constantly criticised kid. Sentanta does a great job here of making clear the problems it can cause later in life.

But it does seem that the "everybody wins!" kid is damaged as well.

Reading through these comments has really made me reflect on my art school days. Most days I needed a shovel just to dig my ego out of the bottomless pit of criticism I encountered there. It could be really brutal and I'm glad I had the tools to cope with it.

I ended up a portrait photographer because there were a few portraits that I made in school that didn't get wadded up and thrown in the trash right away. And as ego-crushing as most of it was, it was still no comparison to the real world as a working photographer.

Will the "everybody wins" kid be prepared to deal with that kind of rejection?

I think we have to encourage our kid's efforts and attempts at new things but that we also have to leave them room to fail at some things.

How else are they going to learn?

Phantom bricks seem to be the building material of choice these days. They're eaiser to build with, no doubt about it, and they exist in abundance but will they withstand a huff and a puff?

I'm struggling to find the balance between material and durability and I appreciate the input offered here!

I often wonder how these folks are going to do in the real world of job applications.

Not everyone loves you. Not everyone thinks you're special. Not everyone finds you charming. Not everyone "gets" you.

I think a lot of kids figure this out and then it gets tamped down with all that damned winning. For a philosophy that's attempting to, I suppose, take competition out of life (hey, I'm for that, to an extent, as I really despise competing), it just adds more.

Dunno if you've ever read the book, Bless the Beasts and the Children (it was made into a film in the early 70s). Anyway, there's a scene in the book where two brothers (really only known as Lally 1 and Lally 2) are given nearly identical presents at Christmas so that they don't fight. And they end up fighting like cats and dogs over the one pair of presents that weren't perfectly identical - two bicycles, identical in every way except one was red and the other was blue.

These two boys were going to be competitive and rivals and all that and the effort to give them identical gifts just put a band-aid on it but didn't offer any sort of a meaningful solution. And I suspect the same thing is the case with the "everybody wins" BS being foisted on a lot of kids these days.

By not keeping score in soccer, perhaps it's less competitive, but any kid who's half-conscious knows who's made a goal (or a save), and who hasn't. By not giving out grades, perhaps everyone "feels" better, but any kid with half a bit of awareness knows who the smart kids are, and who the slow kids are.

I grew up in a school culture where, in 4th grade, we all stood up when we did the times tables. And it went up and down the rows: 2 times 4, 2 times 5, etc. And if you got it wrong, you sat down, until there were very few kids standing. And it was always the same kids, over and over again, and it was the same ones who sat down early, too. Was this a good way to learn? I don't know. I do know that I remember the times tables, but at the same time, you could see how it humiliated some. So I guess I'm glad that that's gone, but what have we replaced it with? Oh brave new world, with such people in't.

Absolutely! How is a child going to develop any standards, if everything that he does is "wonderful"? I think that the operative phrase here is "constructive criticism". If a child does something improperly, it is hurtful and counterproductive to simply tell him that what he did was incorrect. He needs to understand why it was not correct, and given hints as to how he can do better in a specific instance.

I think that a child needs to be told that he is not expected to do everything perfectly right from the getgo, but that the important thing is to understand that there is a problem, examine it, and figure out ways to solve his problem. That is so much better than the adult simply telling the child the correct way to do something. The child needs to learn problem solving in bits and pieces, and made to feel proud of his accomplishments.

Oh yeah, I agree that the kids are keeping score. I'm really not sure what the remedy is for the everybody wins mentality.

One of the strangest things I found upon my unlikely entrance into child raising is how absolutely competitive parenting is -- the whole "build a better baby" philosophy.

I wonder if "build a better baby" is some kind of backlash to "everybody wins".

I hope the regulars to the parenting forum didn't think I was excluding them from this debate. My post arose from a conversation on a thread over there. I'd love to hear more about how parents are dealing with this.

And teachers too.

(Wouldn't cross posting be a lovely option?)

I only just saw this, really interesting conversation so far.

I love dlowan's comment about phantom vs. reality-based achievements, and Vivien's about praise having no value if it's given for everything.

I'll run with the "and teachers too" part, and answer from that perspective... I think that this is yet another one of those things where good teachers did some good things that had some actual good effects, but were reduced to absurd components in the attempt to export whatever they were doing that was good.

One of the things I think good teachers do is make their praise specific and deserved; not make things up, but be creative about it, and do it in such a way that provides direction towards further refinement and accomplishments.

I think that was bowlderized to "praise everyone, whether they deserve it or not." Requires less creativity. :-?

The over-praised child learns an inaccurate picture of both himself and of the world he lives in. He knows how to accept adulation, but not reality.

Ugh.

*nods* Sounds very plausible. Someone does their thesis and writes about how there is to much competition/not enough praise and the thesis gets published in a journal or two on Eductaion, child development, etc.. A few peoplee grab ahold of the idea and develop a few ways to limit/control competition and increase teh amount of praise. Someone else farther down the road grabs that and decides it would be even better to eliminate ALL competition (as you said, it requires less creativity to eliminate it entirely than to find the specific instances where it could be usefully eliminated...) and praise everyone and then a "movement" is born.

yes re the identical bikes thing ..... there's a nearly 5 year age gap between my daughters and when school trips etc came up, some parents would treat the younger child to an equivalent treat 'to be fair'.

I didn't agree with this - partly for sound financial reasons of not affording it! but also I felt it was important that they understood that when they were that age and the school trip came round, that they would go on it too if they wanted and the sibling wouldn't be getting a compensatory treat.

I wanted them to understand that they were treated equally but not always at the same time, that things were given when the need or time was right.

I think seeing it as a right to be given an equivalent gift/treat immediately is not a good foundation for life or character trait. The secure knowledge that parents will treat them equally over time is important.

To wails of 'it's not fair!' I usually said 'life's not fair' and I think over praised and spoilt children have a terrible shock coming later when they suddenly realise that.