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Bush Advisor : President Has Legal Power to Torture Children

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:22 am
Jesus, typical Brandon tripe . . . what constitutes "our way of life," Brandon? I'd seriously contemplate suicide if i thought for a moment that i live my life as you do, given the hysterical paranoia evinced by your stated political views . . .
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:26 am
Setanta wrote:
Jesus, typical Brandon tripe . . . what constitutes "our way of life," Brandon? I'd seriously contemplate suicide if i thought for a moment that i live my life as you do, given the hysterical paranoia evinced by your stated political views . . .

Western culture, as opposed to fundamentalist Islamic societies. There are people actively seeking to destroy it. You know, 9/11 and all that?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:30 am
Define western culture--you typically make such universal assumptions, but you have no basis. Fundamentalist Islamic societies? That might be applied to Iran, which it has not been alleged to have been involved in September 11th. Iraq was a secular state under the Ba'atist regime. Afghanistan in the grip of the Taliban would qualify, and therefore the invasion of Afghanistan is justified.

Your posts are seriously paranoid, seriously self-deluded, and historically ignorant, and ignorant of current events, geograpahy and contemporary political and social cultures, Brandon--but nevertheless possessed of political certainties, which after all is a wonderful working definition of self-deluded.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:31 am
I still don't get how the idea that our "way of life" is being threatened means that we get to torture children. That's a very low threshold of justification that just about anybody can claim -- even Saddam Hussein.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:33 am
A very good point, FD . . .
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:39 am
"
Legalizing Torture

Wednesday, June 9, 2004; Page A20


THE BUSH administration assures the country, and the world, that it is complying with U.S. and international laws banning torture and maltreatment of prisoners. But, breaking with a practice of openness that had lasted for decades, it has classified as secret and refused to disclose the techniques of interrogation it is using on foreign detainees at U.S. prisons at Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan and Iraq. This is a matter of grave concern because the use of some of the methods that have been reported in the press is regarded by independent experts as well as some of the Pentagon's legal professionals as illegal. The administration has responded that its civilian lawyers have certified its methods as proper -- but it has refused to disclose, or even provide to Congress, the justifying opinions and memos.



This week, thanks again to an independent press, we have begun to learn the deeply disturbing truth about the legal opinions that the Pentagon and the Justice Department seek to keep secret. According to copies leaked to several newspapers, they lay out a shocking and immoral set of justifications for torture. In a paper prepared last year under the direction of the Defense Department's chief counsel, and first disclosed by the Wall Street Journal, the president of the United States was declared empowered to disregard U.S. and international law and order the torture of foreign prisoners. Moreover, interrogators following the president's orders were declared immune from punishment. Torture itself was narrowly redefined, so that techniques that inflict pain and mental suffering could be deemed legal. All this was done as a prelude to the designation of 24 interrogation methods for foreign prisoners -- the same techniques, now in use, that President Bush says are humane but refuses to disclose.

There is no justification, legal or moral, for the judgments made by Mr. Bush's political appointees at the Justice and Defense departments. Theirs is the logic of criminal regimes, of dictatorships around the world that sanction torture on grounds of "national security." For decades the U.S. government has waged diplomatic campaigns against such outlaw governments -- from the military juntas in Argentina and Chile to the current autocracies in Islamic countries such as Algeria and Uzbekistan -- that claim torture is justified when used to combat terrorism. The news that serving U.S. officials have officially endorsed principles once advanced by Augusto Pinochet brings shame on American democracy -- even if it is true, as the administration maintains, that its theories have not been put into practice. Even on paper, the administration's reasoning will provide a ready excuse for dictators, especially those allied with the Bush administration, to go on torturing and killing detainees.

Perhaps the president's lawyers have no interest in the global impact of their policies -- but they should be concerned about the treatment of American servicemen and civilians in foreign countries. Before the Bush administration took office, the Army's interrogation procedures -- which were unclassified -- established this simple and sensible test: No technique should be used that, if used by an enemy on an American, would be regarded as a violation of U.S. or international law. Now, imagine that a hostile government were to force an American to take drugs or endure severe mental stress that fell just short of producing irreversible damage; or pain a little milder than that of "organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death." What if the foreign interrogator of an American "knows that severe pain will result from his actions" but proceeds because causing such pain is not his main objective? What if a foreign leader were to decide that the torture of an American was needed to protect his country's security? Would Americans regard that as legal, or morally acceptable? According to the Bush administration, they should."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26602-2004Jun8.html






"Bush, Torture and Lincoln’s Legacy
By James Ross

Published in America Magazine, August 1, 2005

Being the only superpower means never having to say you’re sorry. In the year since the first photos of humiliation and torture at Abu Ghraib prison were leaked, there has been a flurry of Pentagon studies, jump-started criminal investigations and disturbing new revelations in the media. Yet public attention has not translated into sustained public outcry. The Bush administration has been remarkably successful thus far in avoiding paying a political price for policies that are destined to endanger U.S. soldiers in future wars and harm America’s long-term foreign policy interests.

Making the Geneva Conventions optional and failing to properly punish those responsible for war crimes will place captured American soldiers and civilians in future wars at greater risk. States that for nearly 150 years have looked to the United States as a source of inspiration for the treatment of prisoners in wartime have lost an important ally.

James Ross, Senior Legal Advisor

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An important reason for this muted outrage has been the administration’s skill in disparaging the laws of armed conflict -- that hoary body of international law that does not ban war, but seeks to minimize the suffering war invariably produces. The administration has sought to portray this law, particularly the Geneva Conventions of 1949, as harmful rather than helpful for protecting America’s security.

When the first detainees arrived at Guantanamo Bay in January 2002, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld declared them all to be unlawful combatants who “do not have any rights” under the Geneva Conventions. The U.S., he said, would “for the most part, treat them in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the Geneva Conventions, to the extent they are appropriate.” Later that month, then White House counsel Alberto Gonzales wrote to President Bush that the Geneva Convention provisions on questioning enemy prisoners were “obsolete” and argued, among other things, that rejecting the applicability of the Geneva Convention “[s]ubstantially reduces the threat of domestic criminal prosecution” of U.S. officials for war crimes.

Over the objections of then Secretary of State Colin Powell and military leaders, President Bush essentially adopted this line. On February 7, 2002, he announced that the Geneva Conventions did not apply in military operations against Al Qaeda. Rumsfeld told journalists that day: “The reality is the set of facts that exist today with the Al Qaeda and the Taliban were not necessarily the set of facts that were considered when the Geneva Convention was fashioned.”

The administration’s rejection of the Geneva Conventions was unlawful, unnecessary and ultimately led to the abuses of prisoners in Afghanistan, Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay. Under the Geneva Conventions, captured members of armed groups such as Al Qaeda are not entitled to prisoner-of-war status. They are nonetheless entitled to the basic protections afforded all persons picked up in a battle zone, including protection from torture and other ill treatment, a fair trial should they be charged with a crime, and, in the case of civilian detainees, the periodic review of the security rationale for their detention.

The administration’s policy opened the door for the bizarre legal theories put forward in the infamous “torture memos” drafted in 2002 and 2003. Besides nearly defining away the concept of torture, these memos claim that no law, international or domestic, bans the president as commander-in-chief from ordering torture (by this reasoning, Saddam Hussein could lawfully order torture too). Although the White House frequently repeated the mantra of “humane treatment” of detainees, the rejection of the Geneva Conventions and the torture memos’ encouragement of unlawful practices meant that the pragmatic and legally grounded U.S. military regulations on interrogations could safely be ignored.

The Bush administration’s attitude towards the laws of war is a radical departure from longstanding U.S. military practice. During the Korean War, the United States treated enemy soldiers in accordance with the Geneva Conventions even though none of the protagonists had yet to ratify the treaties. In Vietnam, captured Viet Cong were held as prisoners-of-war even though the letter of the law did not require it. It’s an old and noble tradition: David Hackett Fischer in his recent book, Washington’s Crossing, describes how General George Washington made sure that captured British and Hessian solders were treated humanely even though the British often executed captured Continentals. Washington wasn’t just being generous: he understood that such treatment would over time best serve the interests of American soldiers.

Surprisingly little attention has been paid to President Bush’s -- and everyone else’s -- most admired president, Abraham Lincoln, on the laws of war. Despite the grave threat the Civil War posed to the nation, Lincoln recognized the value of broadly recognized rules of war that promote restraint and humanistic principles.

By late 1862 the bloody day at Antietam and the issuance of the Emancipation Proclamation had totally changed the nature of the war. In Bruce Catton’s words, “[t]he war now was a war to preserve the Union and to end slavery…. It could not stop until one side or the other was made incapable of fighting any longer; hence, by the standards of that day, it was going to be an all-out war – hard, ruthless, vicious….” Lincoln recognized that such a conflict required greater attention to war’s customary rules, not less.

First was the problem of the legal status of captured Confederate soldiers. Lincoln did not want to recognize the rebellion of the southern states as legitimate, nor was it desirable or feasible to label all Johnny Rebs as traitors subject to execution. He needed a way to treat captured Confederate soldiers as prisoners of war without suggesting that the Confederate States of America was a lawful state.

Second, the hyper-expansion of the U.S. military from a peacetime force of 13,000 professional soldiers to multiple armies of several hundred thousand volunteers and conscripts placed huge burdens on military discipline. In northern Virginia and other areas under federal occupation, vandalism by Union forces was rampant. Whereas the old army could slowly inculcate new recruits with the traditional laws of war, the Civil War army, whose officers were often as green as its foot soldiers, required a clearly written set of rules of practical value.

Lincoln turned for advice to an émigré legal scholar, Francis Lieber, at Columbia College (now University) in New York City. Born in Berlin, Lieber as a teenager fought and was severely wounded during the Waterloo campaign. Prussian political repression brought him to the United States in 1827. He taught for many years in South Carolina, keeping quiet his strong abolitionist views until he transferred to Columbia’s faculty in 1857.

More than his European upbringing, Lieber’s views on the laws of war reflected his life in America: two of his sons fought for the Union, one losing an arm at Fort Donelson. And his eldest son, raised in the South, joined the Confederate ranks and was mortally wounded at the Battle of Williamsburg in May 1862. In a letter to Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts, Lieber wrote: “I knew war as [a] soldier, as a wounded man in the hospital, as an observing citizen, but I had yet to learn it in the phase of a father searching for his wounded son, walking through the hospitals, peering in the ambulances.”

Contrary to prevailing attitudes in the North, Lieber urged that Union forces on humanitarian grounds provide the privileges of belligerency to Confederate forces. This allowed Lincoln to dodge the thorny question of appearing to recognize the Confederacy while providing rebel soldiers the protections then normally due prisoners-of-war. (Bush appeared to be adopting this approach when he called for the humane treatment of Guantanamo detainees, but the practice never measured up to his words.)

This humanistic strain runs through Lieber’s "Instructions for the Government of Armies of the United States in the Field," which President Lincoln approved on April 24, 1863 as General Orders No. 100. The Lieber code, as it is now known, was the first recognized codification of the laws of war. As Lieber noted at the time, “nothing of the kind exists in any language. I had no guide, no ground-work, no text-book.” Its 157 rules made a lasting place for Lieber -- and the United States -- in the development of the laws of war.

Lieber was no softie when it came to warfare. While believing that the final aim of war was to reestablish the state of peace, he argued that the best way to achieve this was through short, decisive wars. As article 29 of Lieber’s code states, “the more vigorously wars are pursued, the better it is for humanity. Sharp wars are brief.” This thinking underlines U.S. war-fighting doctrine today.

The Lieber code has been criticized for its reliance on the doctrine of “military necessity,” which permits often-egregious practices so long as a commander has a military justification, an all too handy escape clause. But Lieber’s conception of military necessity actually placed limits on an army’s actions where previously none existed: thus pre-Lieber code armies could loot and destroy civilian property at will, even when there was no military need for doing so. Other Lieber code provisions considered barbaric today – such as the starvation of besieged towns – were part and parcel of nineteenth century warfare and have since been prohibited.

Such caveats aside, the Lieber code consolidated important humanizing elements of warfare. Of particular note are Lieber’s, and ultimately Lincoln’s, views on the treatment of prisoners. Article 16 of the code boldly states: "Military necessity does not admit of cruelty--that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions.” All forms of cruelty against prisoners are prohibited. Even the code’s broad acceptance of military necessity does not provide a justification for torture.

General Orders No. 100 was distributed to the Union armies in the field and the standards set by the code seem to have been generally observed by both sides. At the close of the war, the code’s precepts figured in the debate over Sherman’s destructive “March to the Sea,” and the trial and conviction of Captain Henry Wirtz, commandant of the notorious Confederate prison camp at Andersonville in Georgia.

The major powers of Europe quickly recognized the value of codified laws of war and Lieber’s code became the model for Prussia and other armies on the continent. Ultimately this American vision of warfare and the treatment of prisoners became the basis for the major international treaties, namely the Hague Regulations at the turn of the nineteenth century and the Geneva Conventions. Geneva’s strict prohibitions on torture and other cruel treatment can be traced through Lieber’s own uncompromising language.

The Bush administration, through its open disregard for the laws of war in its treatment of detainees, has undermined an important American tradition. Even after the publication of the Abu Ghraib photos, Secretary Rumsfeld continued to pooh-pooh the Geneva Conventions. He told NBC’s “Today” on May 5, 2004 that the conventions “did not apply precisely” but were “basic rules” for handling prisoners. Visiting Abu Ghraib a week later, Rumsfeld remarked: “Geneva doesn’t say what you do when you get up in the morning.” Actually, the U.S. armed forces have devoted considerable energy over the years to making the Geneva Conventions fully operational by military personnel. Various U.S. military field manuals and operational handbooks provide the means for implementing Geneva Convention provisions, even where those provisions are unclear.

While the media often still refer to the “Abu Ghraib scandal,” we now know serious crimes were committed in several dozen detention centers in Iraq, Afghanistan and at Guantanamo Bay. At last Pentagon count, no less than twenty-seven detainee deaths were criminal homicides. The CIA has admitted to using “water boarding” (near drowning), unmistakably a form of torture. And documents newly released under the Freedom of Information Act have confirmed some of the more outrageous accounts of detainee abuse. In the meantime, one suspects those Abu Ghraib photos are being used by Al Qaeda and others as recruiting posters.

The White House has treated these crimes in the manner of a tin-pot dictatorship. It has engaged in pseudo hand wringing, dog-and-pony investigations and lackluster criminal prosecutions that have concentrated on the “bad apples” at the bottom of the barrel and ignored those at the top. The connection between the official policies and the unofficial practices has yet to be fully investigated. Administration officials most responsible have gotten promotions and praise rather than the boot.

One top official, now out of office, fully understood where the administration was leading us. The day after Alberto Gonzales sent his January 2002 memo to the president, Colin Powell submitted a stinging rebuke. He wrote that declaring the Geneva Conventions inapplicable to the Afghan conflict would “reverse over a century of U.S. policy and practice in supporting the Geneva Conventions and undermine the protections of the law of war for our troops, both in this specific conflict and in general.” And he warned that it would have “a high cost in terms of negative international reaction, with immediate adverse consequences for our conduct of foreign policy.”

Other dissenters are beginning to come out of the woodwork. Shortly after stepping down from his post as State Department legal advisor, William H. Taft IV told an audience at American University in March this year: “It has been a continuing source of amazement and, I may add, considerable disappointment to me that… lawyers at the Department of Justice thought it was important to decide at that time that the Conventions did not apply to al Qaeda as a matter of law.…. This unsought conclusion unhinged those responsible for the treatment of the detainees in Guantanamo from the legal guidelines for interrogation of detainees reflected in the Conventions and embodied in the Army Field Manual for decades.”

Making the Geneva Conventions optional and failing to properly punish those responsible for war crimes will place captured American soldiers and civilians in future wars at greater risk. States that for nearly 150 years have looked to the United States as a source of inspiration for the treatment of prisoners in wartime have lost an important ally. And the difficult task of promoting decent conduct in the world’s myriad vicious little wars – wars that often affect U.S. interests – has now become even harder.

George W. Bush has a long way to go before he can claim Abraham Lincoln’s legacy to a humane articulation of the laws of war. It is a legacy that has long served the interests of the United States and for which Americans can genuinely be proud. It is a legacy that with each feckless Pentagon investigation and half-hearted war crimes prosecution becomes forever imperiled. "


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/08/05/usdom11610.htm





This source has a clear political POV, bu tinteresting reading nonetheless.


http://www.counterbias.com/054.html








Just a few counter views to claims Bush co have never supported torture.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:58 am
Wow. Talk about a thread that has no basis in reality.

A hypothetical question was posed and now Brandon has been demonized for wanting to torture children and not being able to define "western culture"...

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 07:59 am
More tripe from the politically self-deluded . . .


Dog bless you, our wayward child . . .


Ramen . . .
0 Replies
 
detano inipo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:14 am
A torturer is the lowest form of human being imaginable. Anyone who inflicts pain or barbarity on a defenseless creature is a depraved coward.
Torture used to de the domain of dictators. It has spread to others, which is disturbing.
Most people who debate this problem have never experienced torture; to them it is just another dry argument.
McCain convinced Bush to stop supporting torture. He has credibility and clout because he knows torture.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:15 am
McGentrix wrote:
Wow. Talk about a thread that has no basis in reality.

A hypothetical question was posed and now Brandon has been demonized for wanting to torture children and not being able to define "western culture"...

Rolling Eyes


Brandon's being "demonized" for posting incomprehensible answers to questions. Your post has no basis in reality and is greatly exaggerated.

The question, is it illegal for the president to order the torture of children, was answered "no" by one of the president's top legal advisors -- someone who has authored legal opinions that the president has previously based his actions on. I don't see how that isn't significant unless your faith that the president would never do that is as solid as a rock. Since we know that we do torture and that the president believes he has the authority to order such a thing, what's to stop him from ordering the torture of children other than just basic human decency? And if he had basic human decency, why would he authorize anyone to be tortured?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:19 am
"what's to stop him from ordering the torture of children other than just basic human decency?"

What the hell is the matter with you people?
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:21 am
Can you answer the question?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:30 am
Probably the same thing that stops him from kicking babies, launching nuclear weapons at a whim, from beating his wife, from masturbating in a closet, from eating so much pizza he explodes, from forcing the mets to live in his basement or any other stupid assed thing you guys or someother pseudo-journalist can come up with.

It's a stupid f*****g statement to make.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:37 am
In the interest of honesty, i feel i should point out that i reported the last post. I can't say that it will do any good, but i feel the post should be removed.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:40 am
No, it's not. If you could stop freaking out long enough to look at it. We allow torture. We participate in torture. The president's legal advisors believe he has the authority to order this and that no treaty can prevent him from ordering the torture of children. There are currently allegations that children have been detained and tortured in Iraq in order to convince their parents to talk.

http://www.sundayherald.com/43796

Now how is it a stupid (not statement) question to make? What prevents him from doing this?

Kicking babies (in the US) is assault and is illegal. Launching nuclear weapons has immediate global repercussions. Beating his wife is against the law. Masturbating in a closet is harmless, and eating too much pizza hurts only him. What repercussions are there to ordering the torture of children? It's a legitimate question. The fact that the question itself sends you into hysterics is not relevant.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:42 am
McGentrix wrote:
Probably the same thing that stops him from kicking babies, launching nuclear weapons at a whim, from beating his wife, from masturbating in a closet, from eating so much pizza he explodes, from forcing the mets to live in his basement or any other stupid assed thing you guys or someother pseudo-journalist can come up with.

I believe that thing would be human decency. FreeDuck's question was what else is keeping him from ordering it? (Presumably under the expectation that this order be obeyed.)
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:42 am
Setanta wrote:
Define western culture--you typically make such universal assumptions, but you have no basis. Fundamentalist Islamic societies? That might be applied to Iran, which it has not been alleged to have been involved in September 11th. Iraq was a secular state under the Ba'atist regime. Afghanistan in the grip of the Taliban would qualify, and therefore the invasion of Afghanistan is justified.

Your posts are seriously paranoid, seriously self-deluded, and historically ignorant, and ignorant of current events, geograpahy and contemporary political and social cultures, Brandon--but nevertheless possessed of political certainties, which after all is a wonderful working definition of self-deluded.

I said only that there are people actively seeking to destroy our societies, which is just on the face of it true, and which few would deny.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:43 am
FreeDuck wrote:
I still don't get how the idea that our "way of life" is being threatened means that we get to torture children. That's a very low threshold of justification that just about anybody can claim -- even Saddam Hussein.

Nobody is claiming that.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:44 am
detano inipo wrote:
A torturer is the lowest form of human being imaginable. Anyone who inflicts pain or barbarity on a defenseless creature is a depraved coward.
Torture used to de the domain of dictators. It has spread to others, which is disturbing.
Most people who debate this problem have never experienced torture; to them it is just another dry argument.
McCain convinced Bush to stop supporting torture. He has credibility and clout because he knows torture.

Bush has never supported torture.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Jan, 2006 08:44 am
FreeDuck wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Wow. Talk about a thread that has no basis in reality.

A hypothetical question was posed and now Brandon has been demonized for wanting to torture children and not being able to define "western culture"...

Rolling Eyes


Brandon's being "demonized" for posting incomprehensible answers to questions.

No. Give an example or withdraw the allegation.
0 Replies
 
 

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