THE NBA, DRESS CODES, PUBLIC POLICY, and the ACLU.

Touche.............Foxfyre

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rodeman wrote:

Touche.............Foxfyre

Not really Rodeman. I have colored outside the lines, tried to think outside the box all my life and as a result I am sometimes incomprehensible to others or viewed as illogical by those who have things all figured out or who want things to be all nice and neat and decided. So your observation was right on. Clothes indeed are just a costume we wear, sometimes to be something that we are not. I just expanded on that observation.

I also see that the costume is not insignificant or of no consequence. Do role models have the greater influence becoming 'one of the kids' and doing what they do? Or do they have the greater influence demonstrating what the kids can aspire to become? This is the real question here I think.

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rodeman wrote:

Once you start letting old white guys dictate sartorial standards you'll soon have NBA players in polyester leisure suits with white patent leather shoes and belts.

Probably not. They're not going from the baggy trousers to the Sears menswear department. If they can't go hip hop, they'll go to finely tailored suits, I can assure you of that.

The whole thing is just the league enforcing the clause that every player signed in their contract. The same contract which gurantees them $350,000 minimum and allows the median income of $3.5 million a year. Defiance, if any, will be short-lived.

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I'm listening, and if I have a bias here I haven't ferreted it out...

er, did anyone look at my link for the old thread?

but back to who would I hire..

I was in a hiring position-of-decision a few times. The first time I picked among the series of choices a very heavy man, say dieted down to 380 to apply, a weight never seen again, on the low side, who was previously a lab tech in the army. He became important to me and me to his family, somewhat. Very efficient, we were both glad I said yes on his hiring.

I was also quite close to the hiring of another lab tech who appeared with a hippy chick dress and staples holding her sandals together. Yeh, boss and I liked her, and she happened to have both a masters in chem and in art. She worked out well, now a tenured professor in pharmacology.

I haven't been hiring anyone at work lately, but have been through five years of picking artists to show. What they say is important.

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kelticwizard wrote:

You [Foxfyre] stated that since the ACLU got involved in a dress code in a public high school, you expect their involvement in a dress code case in a privately owned sports league inevitable. As if there is any similarity between a professional sports league, all of whose members signed contracts, and a public high school, none of whose students signed contracts and more importantly, whose attendance is mandated by law.

Foxfyre wrote:

No I did not. I used a highschool case to show what I believe the ACLU agenda to be and the type of case they love to handle. I in no way compared a highschool to the NBA.

Here is your previous statement.:

Foxfyre wrote:

have seen the ACLU go into action on behalf of the students when the schools attempted to enforce dress codes here in Albuquerque. The link is to a Georgia case but there are many many like it across the country. I can't imagine the ACLU would duck a juicy high profile similar case involving the NBA.

Please note that Foxfyre called the NBA situation "a similar case" to the high school cases.

Foxfyre, there is little point in denying the things you posted. They are there for the poster to read in previous pages. Attempting to deny what you posted when it is there for everyone to see-well, that's just foolish.

And the ACLU, and your opinion of it, hasn't a darn thing to do with this subject either, despite you best efforts to try to make it seem so.

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Lest there be any more obfuscating on the thread, this excerpt is from the NY Daily News. This is a later article than the News article I previously cited, but it sums things up nicely.

For background, I should mention that Allen Iverson is one of the NBA stars that it was speculated the dress code was aimed at. Apparently, he spent a lot of time wearing hip hop clothes and amulets. He also spent a lot of time in courtrooms explaining weapons violations and for a few months was wearing a court ordered ankle bracelet, but those are other matters. Also, Isiah Thomas, who runs the Knicks, is black and a former NBA star of the eighties. Staturewise, he was perhaps just a tiny step behind Michael Jordan.

NY Daily News wrote:

In fashion, Isiah's code ahead of its time

Allen Iverson would be shocked to know Knicks' dress code is more stringent than commissioner David Stern's.

If Allen Iverson thinks he has it tough with the NBA's new dress code, he should try getting on a Knicks' team charter.
He'd never make it into his seat - even if his duds are up to David Stern's new standards.

Knicks players know that if they don't come for a road trip dressed in a suit, they shouldn't bother coming to the airport. The penalty for violating the team dress code is flying commercial and paying your own way.

Hearing that, Iverson would probably put the Knicks on his no-trade list. But that's fine with Garden executives who think that Isiah Thomas made a great move in upgrading the team's dress code shortly after taking over as team president.

"We like the way our players dress and look, they're very professional and they really represent our franchise and New York very well," said Steve Mills, the Garden president. "Our players have to dress better than what the league wants, so we're not even worried about the new policy. I know the league is taking flak over what they want the players to wear. But have you seen a press conference after an NFL game? You see players wearing suits. You never hear those guys complaining."

The complaints from NBA players this past week were ridiculous, by and large. If the league were in such fantastic shape, selling out every game, drawing big ratings numbers and enjoying the kind of popularity it had in the '80s, then there would not be a need to start addressing some of the fundamental problems that Stern finally came to see. If only he'd take a more serious look at some of the flaws of his game, he'd really be on the right path. But that's another story.

Clippers coach Mike Dunleavy had it right when he said, "We're professionals and we should be dressing accordingly." Incidentally, the Clippers are one of many teams that already had a dress code in place. The way the code was reported, you would have thought that the entire league has been walking around in baggy jeans, throwback jerseys and do-rags. Far from it. What Stern did was to merely set minimums.

"Our dress code is not even what Isiah requires of the Knicks," he noted, talking about his business causal dress code. "It's something considerably lighter."

Still, it caused the predictable reaction, with charges of racism. Boston's Paul Pierce claimed "we're not businessmen, we're entertainers." In this case, he and about 450 other players are merely employees of the NBA. They'll do what they're told or risk a fine and/or a suspension. Weclome to the corporate world, fellas.

"Once they start talking about suspending me, then I don't have a choice," Iverson said. "I don't have a choice but to abide by it. I don't want them to take my money. I don't want to just give my money away. That's just like taking it and burning it."

Which, for Iverson, is tantamount to putting on a three-piece suit.

Source.

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Note that dress codes have been a part of sports for a long time, but in the NBA it was done on a team basis. So there is really nothing statling about the NBA's dress code at all. And if you belong to the Knicks and several other teams, your dress code will be stricter than the League's. this is the team's right.

Although I think the Yankees' code of no facial hair is asinine. But hey, I don't own the team.

As for the issue of whether or not the League has the right to require the players to be role models. I would say that some will be inclined to be role models and some won't. There have been some shameful examples of players who have perpetrated violence against women, for instance, which the Leagues have allowed to play. If they want to clean up anything, they should clean up that.

Overall, I think how a player performs in the game, along with how well he fits in with his teammates, (some talented players are cancers in the locker room, tearing their teams apart). But I do think there are behavioral limits below which a player should not be allowed to fall. On principle I find myself put off by dress codes, since I think a player should primarily make the team by his performance.

But the teams have the right to do it. Now I would like to see them spend less time worrying about players' suits, or players smoking marijuana, and more time cracking down on violent crimes some of these players are accused of.

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I guess then I need to annouce my niece has been into hiphop. (She is still alive and well..)

Ahem, means of expression change.

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Extraplating 'similar cases/circumstances' into a comparison between a highschool and the NBA is your own creation KW. I won't restate my position. You're wrong. You think you're right. We'll just leave it at that.

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Foxfyre wrote:

You're wrong. You think you're right.

Baloney. You said the cases were similar, which means you were calling them comparable on this issue.

I also see you don't even bother going into the fact that with one, a contract is signed, with the other, it is not and attendance is mandatory to meet the law. Which is why these cases are NOT similar.

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ossobuco wrote:

I guess then I need to annouce my niece has been into hiphop. (She is still alive and well..)

Ahem, means of expression change.

I agree. That is why I don't support dress codes, but I do recognize the team's right to enforce their contract on the issue at any time.

But if they really wanted to make a statement, I would like the teams and leagues start chucking players out for violence against women, weapons violations, etc.

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Oh, yeah..... absolutely.

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kelticwizard wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
You're wrong. You think you're right.
Baloney. You said the cases were similar, which means you were calling them comparable on this issue.

I also see you don't even bother going into the fact that with one, a contract is signed, with the other, it is not and attendance is mandatory to meet the law. Which is why these cases are NOT similar.

You know what KW. I'm going to give you the nitpicking award of the week and the nitpicking-to-derail-the-point-of-a-thread award for the year. I have no intention o going into 'the fact' as you call it because it is totally absurd. I have every right to not accept the characterization you presume to place on me and I don't accept it. You may not presume to tell me what I did or did not intend. If you don't wish to discuss the topic of this thread, fine. Nobody will mind if you find something else to do.

I would enjoy discussing something that is actually pertinent to this thread such as whether dress codes are important for sports teams or anybody and whether NBA players should be asked to be role models for kids. What responsibility do big money entertainers of any venue have to their public? Or do they have any responsibility? Is a dress code for the NBA racist? Where do rights of those who pay for a product begin and individual rights end whether we're talking public schools, government, the work place, or movie stars or professional sports teams?

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Foxfyre wrote:

You know what KW. I'm going to give you the nitpicking award of the week and the nitpicking-to-derail-the-point-of-a-thread award for the year.

On the contrary, I have been struggling mightlily to deal with the issue. It is you who are throwing in extraneous matters.

Foxfyre wrote:

I have no intention o going into 'the fact' as you call it because it is totally absurd. I have every right to not accept the characterization you presume to place on me and I don't accept it.

What you wrote is clearly written on the board. Nothing you profess now can change that.

Foxfyre wrote:

You may not presume to tell me what I did or did not intend.

I can point out what you wrote and what those words mean. You said the dress code in high school and the dress code situation in the NBA were two similar cases. And clearly, they were not. One institution requires mandatory attendance, the other lets the individual take it or leave it.

Foxfyre wrote:

I would enjoy discussing something that is actually pertinent to this thread such as whether dress codes are important for sports teams or anybody and whether NBA players should be asked to be role models for kids. What responsibility do big money entertainers of any venue have to their public?

That's what you say this thread is about now. However, throughout this thread you made it clear that you wanted to discuss was how some black players were going to try to make this about how they are being picked on and the ACLU was going to support them in their argument, along with the inferences that the ACLU was after power, betrays their clients, etc. You were the one who brought this into the discussion, not I.

I'd be glad to discuss the idea of expecting sports figures behaving like role models and some of the other things you mentioned in your last post. However, don't complain to me when you derail your own thread. Because you just did.

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As just a comment, my own youngest daughter ( typical white, blond hair blue eyed all american look) has been into hip hop music since she was old enough to listen to music other than old MacDonald. She now has a 3.8 average in college and has been shift manager where she worked at Dairy Queen. She has been going with a black boy for five years who also listens to hip hop music, wears braids and baggy pants. He happens to be doing very well in college as well as working to support his family. Moreover, he is a youth leader and is part of the choir in his church which he attends at least three times a week, if not more.

You can't just a book by its cover.

As for the topic, no comment.

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Wise post Revel. I don't like hip hop because many popular rap songs have stupid lyrics and it can get annoying. I personally know people who like rap but are good people.

On the topic, in the NHL, the players wear suits before the game when they arrived in the stadium. Something about the sport being a profession. I don't know, it's just a formality thing, nothing important.

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The dress code stems directly from last years brawl in Detroit. That crazy happening made alot of fans see The NBA as a league of thugs. This is an image that David Stern definitely does not want, so to counter that he decide to forbid the players from wearing jerseys, baggy pants, hats, chains, and other traditional thug gear.

If you continuously see Ron Artest in a suit rather than a Dennis Rodman throw back, you will sooner forget that incident...

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i don't think i'll ever forget that incident...

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THE NBA, DRESS CODES, PUBLIC POLICY, and the ACLU.

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