Democratisation in the Middle East - the debate

Another:

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Another:

Wait a minute, what does any of this have to do with the definition of democracy? Wasn't Greece a democracy, but women had no rights, and there were slaves who had no rights? You can have a democracy without a constitution, or any written laws, can't you? This is utter bullsh!t!

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Just type "Israel is not a democracy" in any search engine, and you find examples like the following:

Written in 1985 by Jack Bernstein
German Americans cannot be citizens of both the U.S. and Germany...
continued at: http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/american_jew_in_racist_marxist_israel.htm

Wait! I know this to be FALSE! In Germany, citizenship goes by the inherited, not by where they are born; so if the father or mother are german, the children are german. And if you are born in America, you are an American citizen. SO it is possible to have dual citizenship. The article you quoted, ci, is misleading.

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That's correct - German Americans can be citizens of both the U.S. and Germany, Italian Americans can be citizen of both U.S. and Italy, (not sure about Egypt - however: only due to German and Italian law, not re US-law.

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Summary of today's British press (by the Wrap, one of Guardian Unlimited's paid-for services).

Quote:

CRITICISM OF ISRAEL GROWS

Robert Fisk, in Beirut, is impatient. "How soon must we use the words 'war crime'? How many children must be scattered in the rubble of Israeli air attacks before we reject the obscene phrase 'collateral damage' and start talking about prosecution for crimes against humanity?" Fisk's report laments the death of a single child, name unknown, "whose dead body lies like a rag doll beside the cars which supposedly were taking her and her family to safety".

Fisk's USP is subjectivity, but the Independent commendably prints his report opposite a dispatch from Donald Macintyre in Nazareth. Macintyre too concentrates on the deaths of children, shelled by Hizbullah. He says Hizbullah's rockets are now targetting Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs indiscriminately. A Guardian sidebar laconically notes that 63 Lebanese and four Israelis were killed yesterday.

The Times says that Britain is concerned that Israeli action against Hizbullah is counter-productive, and crucially is not denting the organisation's ability to fire rockets at Israel. The Guardian reports a Hizbullah claim that an Israeli attack on one of its command bunkers had failed. The FT quotes the Lebanese prime minister, who says the attacks are bolstering support for Hizbullah.

The Guardian also says that France has "challenged the Bush administrations's hands-off approach" to the crisis by calling for "immediate action by the UN security council to stop the fighting".

It's grim news everywhere. The Guardian also reports on the "forgotten war" in Gaza and the West Bank, where 13 Palestinians were killed yesterday. The Independent's leader column calls readers' attention back to Iraq, where, it says, there have been 5,818 violent deaths in May and June alone.

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Walter Hinteler wrote:

That's correct - German Americans can be citizens of both the U.S. and Germany, Italian Americans can be citizen of both U.S. and Italy, (not sure about Egypt - however: only due to German and Italian law, not re US-law.

But it's not disallowed, either, so doesn't that mean some people do qualify for dual citizenship in the U.S.?

I'm thinking ci might consider how he's wasted his time pulling up irrelevant diatribes and presenting them as debate fodder. Of course, that's jmo, but I get crabby in the middle of these hot nights...

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princesspupule, It's not diatribe - except to people like you that have no tolerance of criticisms towards Israel. That Mr Berstein was wrong on citizenship for German Americans is but a small error compared to the thesis of his article.

Find mistakes on how Palestinians are treated in Israel rather than the citizenships for German Americans.

I'll be waiting, but I won't hold my breath.

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princesspupule probably doesn't understand what "aparthied" means. Any country that practices aparthied is not a democracy by any stretch by anybody's imagination - except for people like you.

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U.S. at Odds With Allies on Mideast Conflict
Citing Civilian Casualties, European Nations and U.N. Eager for Cease-Fire

By Robin Wright and Colum Lynch
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, July 20, 2006; Page A17

The United States faces growing tensions with allies over its support of Israel's military campaign to cripple Hezbollah, amid calls for a cease-fire to help with the mounting humanitarian crisis.

European allies are particularly alarmed about the disproportionately high civilian death toll in Lebanon. They are also concerned that the U.S. position will increase tensions between the Islamic world and the West by fueling militants, playing into the rhetoric of Osama bin Laden and adding to the problems of the U.S.-led coalition force in Iraq.

"What there needs to be now is a cessation of hostilities," U.N. Deputy Secretary General Mark Malloch Brown told reporters yesterday. "The Middle East is littered with the results of people believing there are military solutions to political problems in the region." He said civilians are "very unfairly bearing the greatest brunt of the conflict."

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cicerone imposter wrote:

princesspupule, It's not diatribe - except to people like you that have no tolerance of criticisms towards Israel. That Mr Berstein was wrong on citizenship for German Americans is but a small error compared to the thesis of his article.

Find mistakes on how Palestinians are treated in Israel rather than the citizenships for German Americans.

I'll be waiting, but I won't hold my breath.

I disagree w/you that it's not a diatribe but I'm glad we agree that it's irrelevant. :wink:

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cicerone imposter wrote:

princesspupule probably doesn't understand what "aparthied" means. Any country that practices aparthied is not a democracy by any stretch by anybody's imagination - except for people like you.

Yes, ci, I understand what apartheid means. And hurling it around can sometimes be rather like using the term "Nazi," in an inappropriate manner which could be said to cheapen its meaning. Now, one more point, ci: are you aware that apartheid doesn't cancel out democracy? You can, conceivably, have both together. Wouldn't you say that the U.S. had both of those going on before the Civil War? :wink:

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Sorry; we're not talking about the historical decades past of any country. We're talking about the apartheid of Israel of today and yesterday.

Israel continues to call itself a democracy "today."

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Sorry; we're not talking about the historical decades past of any country. We're talking about the apartheid of Israel of today and yesterday.

Israel continues to call itself a democracy "today."

Continues to call itself a democracy and is a democracy, by the literal definition, which is ruled by a majority, whether as a majority or by electing representatives. The definition of democracy isn't delineated by time, ci. Either a government is or isn't one. In the case of Israel, it is, literally, a democracy.

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Wrong; Israel is an apartheid state.

a-part-heid n. the official policy of racial segregation as practiced in South Africa and Israel.

my addition

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Here are some facts on Israel's apartheid.

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Here's another.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Wrong; Israel is an apartheid state.

a-part-heid n. the official policy of racial segregation as practiced in South Africa and Israel.

my addition

And again, that doesn't discount that it is a DEMOCRATIC state. All it does is lessen the original meaning of APARTHEID state by having it linked to Israel. But it doesn't discount its democracy, which is what your original sources, and presumably you, contend. Rolling Eyes

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You can decieve yourself as long as you wish; it's not my problem or concern.

I only hope to reach those people who understands and wishes to learn about the Israel of today.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Sorry; we're not talking about the historical decades past of any country. We're talking about the apartheid of Israel of today and yesterday.

Israel continues to call itself a democracy "today."

And yet you brought links to essays about Israel's historical past... And you are the one who broght somebody's skewed definition of democracy and tried to present it as evidence that Israel doesn't meet a non-literal definition of democracy. I think you're just pi$$ed off because I pointed out that sometimes democracies run at less than optimum political correctness (instead of the Civil War era U.S., how about the Civil Rights era U.S.?) You'll not get an argument from me that Israel treats Palestinians with bigotry, but it's not apartheid. I'm pretty sure you'll agree w/me, ci, that Israel is more interested in expelling Palestinians than dominating them, which is the situation in an apartheid state. I could go further explaining the differences between apartheid states (using South Africa as the basis) but I'm pretty sure you have your fingers in your ears and you're singing the ever-familiar chorus, "La la la la la, I can't hear you." You have some agenda in your mind and won't seriously take a look at anything that contradicts what you choose, however erroneously (such as Israel is no democratic state) to believe.

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Lash wrote:

I find it hard to believe someone looking at it from their standpoint doesn't at least understand their actions. We may all hate bombing, but I don't know if anyone has really tried to empathize with Israel.

I can understand and empathise - doesnt mean I have to agree, or even not be horrified by what they do.

Understanding and empathy is only this relevant <gestures>. Hell, there's even serial killers out there I can understand and even empathise with, when I read their biography and see what twisted hells they have gone through themselves, distorting their mind and destroying their heart. But they remain serial killers, and they still need to be stopped.

Yes, I empathise with survivors of the Holocaust and their children, whose instincts lead them to slam back at any threat with overwhelming force. Still doesnt make the berievement of the hundreds of families of innocent Lebanese civilians any more justified or any less horrid, and it still doesnt make the Israeli state's actions any more sensible, or right.

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Democratisation in the Middle East - the debate

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