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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
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  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:35 am
Ionus wrote:
I will... when you explain why you dress in women's clothes and hang out on street corners.


Ionus wrote:
But it is always your reflex to insult

  0  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 03:16 pm
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb
As of December 20, 2007, more than 400 prominent scientists from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
326
Dr. Ross McKitrick, Associate Professor of Environmental Economics at the University of Guelph, is author or coauthor of dozens of peer-reviewed papers in both economics and climate science journals. McKitrick, a UN IPCC expert reviewer, and one of the de-bunkers of the IPCC 'hockey stick' graph, is coauthor of the prize-winning best-seller "Taken By Storm: The Troubled Science, Policy and Politics of Global Warming." In an essay published on December 5, 2007 in the National Post, he describes new research that shows the IPCC surface temperature record is exaggerated. "The data come from thermometers around the world, but between the thermometer readings and the final, famous, warming ramp, a lot of statistical modeling aims at removing known sources of exaggeration in the warming trend. In a new article in the December 2007 issue of the peer-reviewed Journal of Geophysical Research, Climatologist Dr. Patrick Michaels and McKitrick concluded that the temperature manipulations for the steep post-1980 period are inadequate, and the [IPCC] graph is an exaggeration. McKitrick believes that the United Nations agency promoting the global temperature graph has made "false claims about the quality of its data." McKitrick reports in this new, peer-reviewed study that data contamination problems "account for about half the surface warming measured over land since 1980." (LINK) & (LINK) & (LINK)


http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2009
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View Profile Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 05:59 pm
Quote:
It boggles my mind

No surprises here. Now I have to explain statistics ? You will have to rely on more formal methods to improve your education. When you go to High School and begin to learn statistics, you will find the first point is to list all possibilities and give them an equal chance of occurring. Then begins the analysis. Why is that so hard to understand ?
Quote:
No, I never said they were all wrong in one direction. Random errors are just that, random.
Random errors don't normally affect a trend line in a large series of data.
This is not random error. Every single reading is inaccurate. It is the only data available and Global Warming Thuggees who like to cite that references are written by superman needed something to justify their stance. The first question they were asked was what are you basing Global Warming on. Totally devoid of accurate data from the past, they seized on current weather data. Weather fluctuates far more widely than climate. Climate by its very nature is a long term trend. Needing to show a trend, and totally lacking any observable data for the earth's 3.2 billion years it has had a climate, they use the only data available. 30 years of satellite measurements and say they have enough for a trend. Prior to that, they have weather stations with increasing inaccuracy as you go back in time.

The data collection made by climatologists from weather stations is inaccurate. You seem to be repeatedly missing this point so I will explain it for a 8 year old. You wake up in the morning and it is very cold at 2 deg C. It stays that way till 14:00 when the temp climbs quickly to 10 deg C because the sun came out . By night time, the sun has gone down and it is very cold again. Most of the day, from midnight when you were asleep till the next midnight when you were asleep again, it was very cold. The average temperature was 2.7 deg C. The mid point between the max and min temps is 6 deg C. In the town nearby, there was less cloud and rain so the temp range was 2 deg C to 15 deg C. The mid point is 8.5 deg C but the average temp was 10 deg C. The first town has an error of + 3.3 deg C. The second town has an error of - 1.5 deg C. The third and fourth towns have no weather stations because they are of no interest to meteorologists and have no airfield.

With a random number generator you can also "create" numbers. Why measure anything ?

This means that to assume the mid point is always the average is wrong every single time. Why dont we do this everywhere else in science ? Because it is nonsense. If every single piece of data is inaccurate, apart from why are you using it, any trend you find is random. Are you unaware that some numbers come up more often then others in Lotto ?

Quote:
No, I never said they were all wrong in one direction.

If you find a warming trend and you have said that, and they are all wrong then yes, they are all wrong in one direction.
Quote:
Simple problem - Graph the numbers 1 - 10. You will see a trend line.

Now let's introduce errors.
Subtract 2 from each number and graph it again.
You are graphing the numbers -1 to 8. The trend line is exactly the same as the first graph just slightly lower on the graph.
Are you assuming the errors are all in the same direction ?

Quote:
Now let's introduce random errors at a 50/50 rate.
subtract 2 from the even numbers and add 2 to the odd numbers.
Graph that and tell us what the trend is.
The only way you can have a 50/50 rate is if the original assumption is correct and that is : the mid way point is also the average and errors will be evenly distributed about the average. This also assumes all temperatures, everywhere, always follow a bell curve. Whilst this is good enough for weather prediction, as it quickly becomes obvious if it was accurate or not and then they move on to the next prediction, it is not good enough to demand world wide change.

It is usual in science to measure any error and include it in the data and say why it has been discounted. This is not done because no one knows the original error. By accurately plotting the original data and then forming a trend line, one can visually demonstrate a trend and error. It is unheard of to take data that is known to be erroneous and make an assumption it must be correct because the final decision has already been made.
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  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 06:08 pm
Quote:
Ionus wrote:
I will... when you explain why you dress in women's clothes and hang out on street corners.

Ionus wrote:
But it is always your reflex to insult

Apart from being rather self serving and selective, your quoting contains no comment. Do you think your opinion is worthless ? I would like to remind you of a concept in criminal law called Provocation. Or does your limited knowledge of the world not extend to anything other then Climate Change and bullying ?

I will accept your apology for you being the first to insult me when you are man enough to give it. Given your current maturity, that should be when the next Glacial Advance occurs.
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  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 07:35 am
Quote:
No surprises here. Now I have to explain statistics ? You will have to rely on more formal methods to improve your education. When you go to High School and begin to learn statistics, you will find the first point is to list all possibilities and give them an equal chance of occurring. Then begins the analysis. Why is that so hard to understand ?

So, you think the odds of picking the correct numbers in the lottery are 50/50 and you want to explain statistics to others?

Quote:
The only way you can have a 50/50 rate is if the original assumption is correct and that is : the mid way point is also the average and errors will be evenly distributed about the average. This also assumes all temperatures, everywhere, always follow a bell curve. Whilst this is good enough for weather prediction, as it quickly becomes obvious if it was accurate or not and then they move on to the next prediction, it is not good enough to demand world wide change.
So.. it's good enough for weather? But isn't climate nothing more than weather over time?

I am curious how weather in 2009 is different from weather in 1850. Unless you can show that the highs and lows are somehow different today from what they were 150 years ago, I see no rational argument from you. Would you argue that graphing the high temperature for a given day is always inaccurate? Would you argue graphing the low temperature is always inaccurate?

Quote:
It is usual in science to measure any error and include it in the data and say why it has been discounted. This is not done because no one knows the original error.
Your source for this?
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  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 07:36 am
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Ionus wrote:
I will... when you explain why you dress in women's clothes and hang out on street corners.

Ionus wrote:
But it is always your reflex to insult

Apart from being rather self serving and selective, your quoting contains no comment. Do you think your opinion is worthless ? I would like to remind you of a concept in criminal law called Provocation. Or does your limited knowledge of the world not extend to anything other then Climate Change and bullying ?

I will accept your apology for you being the first to insult me when you are man enough to give it. Given your current maturity, that should be when the next Glacial Advance occurs.
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  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 08:30 am
I like it when you repeat what I say. It is called rote learning and I believe it to be your only chance to learn anything. It also gives my view more space.
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View Profile sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 08:46 am
I'm afraid that I have to agree with the internal logic of the article below.

Cap-and-trade mirage

By Laurie Williams and Allan Zabel
Saturday, October 31, 2009

Supporters of the climate bill passed by the House and the similar bill under consideration in the Senate -- including President Obama and Democratic congressional leaders -- say that the cap-and-trade approach would guarantee greenhouse-gas reductions. But this claim ignores the flaws inherent in both bills that would undermine even their weak emissions-reduction targets and would lock in climate degradation.

We are speaking out as parents, citizens and attorneys, but our analysis is informed by more than 20 years each at the Environmental Protection Agency's San Francisco Regional Office, including Allan's extensive experience overseeing California's cap-and-trade and offsets programs for the EPA.

Cap-and-trade means a declining "cap" on total emissions, while allowing trading of pollution permits. Confidence in the certainty of declining caps is based on the mistaken assumption that cap-and trade was proven in the EPA's acid rain program. In fact, addressing acid rain required relatively minor modifications to coal-fired power plants. Reductions were accomplished primarily by a fuel switch to readily available, affordable, low-sulfur coal, along with some additional scrubbing. In contrast, the issues presented by climate change cannot be solved by tweaks to facilities; it requires an energy revolution through investments in building clean-energy facilities.

The biggest obstacle to this revolution is that uncontrolled fossil fuel energy remains much cheaper than clean energy. Cap-and-trade alone will not create confidence that clean energy will become profitable within a known time frame and so will not ignite the huge shift in investment needed to begin the clean-energy revolution. In recent interviews, even the economists who thought up cap-and-trade have said they don't believe it's an appropriate tool for climate change.

What guarantees failure of the proposed climate bills, however, are their provisions for carbon offsets, a concept not used in the acid rain program. Both bills allow all required greenhouse-gas reductions for almost 20 years to be met with carbon offsets rather than actual reductions in use of the capped sources. Offsets -- considered indispensable to keeping cap-and-trade affordable -- are supposed to be "additional" reductions beyond what is legally required. But experience with offsets in Europe and California has shown that ensuring real "additionality" is not an achievable goal.

Suppose, for example, that a landowner is paid not to cut his forest so that it can continue capturing carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Purchasing this offset allows owners of a coal-fired power plant to burn extra coal, above the cap.

But if the landowner wasn't planning to cut his forest, he just received a bonus for doing what he would have done anyway. Even if he was planning to cut his forest and doesn't, demand for wood isn't reduced. A different forest will be cut. Either way, there is no net reduction in production of greenhouse gases. The result of this carbon "offset" is not a decrease but an increase -- coal burning above the cap at the power plant.

Or consider the refrigerant HCFC-22, the manufacture of which creates an extremely powerful greenhouse gas as a byproduct. This byproduct is relatively easy and cheap to destroy, and governments could require refrigerant manufacturers to do just that. But offset investors have persuaded regulators to approve destruction of the byproduct as a carbon offset, making it twice as profitable to sell byproduct destruction as it was to sell the refrigerant.

Some have even fought to keep release of this byproduct legal because, otherwise, destruction of the byproduct would no longer produce offsets as it would no longer be "additional." The situation also creates incentive for some to make unneeded refrigerant to profit from byproduct offsets.

Carbon offsets create the illusion of "additional" greenhouse-gas reductions, but we are just getting business as usual. Untrackable shifting of economic activity and perverse incentives such as these are inherent problems for carbon offsets and cannot be solved by certification or verification processes. Since the most flawed offsets will be the cheapest, they will also be the most popular.

The House and Senate climate bills are not a first step in the right direction. They would give away valuable rights in cap-and-trade permits and create a trillion-dollar carbon-offsets market that will not lead to needed reductions. Together, the illusion of greenhouse-gas reductions and the creation of powerful lobbies seeking to protect newly created profits in permits and offsets would lock in climate degradation for a decade or more. The near-term opportunity to create an effective international framework would also be lost.

Laurie Williams and Allan Zabel are lawyers with the Environmental Protection Agency. The views expressed here are their own and not those of the EPA. Their discussion paper and video on climate change solutions are online at www.carbonfees.org.
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  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 08:51 am
Quote:
So, you think the odds of picking the correct numbers in the lottery are 50/50 and you want to explain statistics to others?
It would be best if you read what I write before you reply. If only so I dont feel like I am picking on someone with a mental handicap.

Quote:
I am curious how weather in 2009 is different from weather in 1850.

It is called the weather...it changes.

Quote:
Unless you can show that the highs and lows are somehow different today from what they were 150 years ago, I see no rational argument from you.
The highs and lows are what give you the middle point. This is what has been used to support Global Warming. By saying there is no change you have argued against Global Warming. Congratulations. You have just changed sides, but as the first to welcome you, might I say you are not welcome. Go back to the other side.

Quote:
Would you argue that graphing the high temperature for a given day is always inaccurate? Would you argue graphing the low temperature is always inaccurate?
I thought we agreed the highs and lows were accurately measured ? Did you understand so little or are you joking ? Are you doing art at school ?

Quote:
Quote:
It is usual in science to measure any error and include it in the data and say why it has been discounted. This is not done because no one knows the original error.Your source for this?
You cant be serious.
This is your worst effort to date. This has become very one-sided. You will have to do better.

I will accept your apology for insulting me when are you man enough to give it.
View Profile Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 08:56 am
In your opinion, what should be done ?
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View Profile parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 10:23 am
Ionus wrote:
It would be best if you read what I write before you reply. If only so I dont feel like I am picking on someone with a mental handicap.

Here is what you wrote....
http://able2know.org/topic/44061-733#post-3797390
Ionus wrote:
That is exactly how statistics work. You have a 50/50 chance of winning or losing. They are the two possibilities. Then you calculate the chances of winning. Then you calculate the chances of losing.

You clearly stated the odds of winning the lottery are 50/50 since I had stated, "If we use your logic Ionus, the odds of winning the lottery would be 50/50 because you can only win/lose." You can deny it all you want but it's right there for all to read. What are the "odds of winning"? You stated they were 50/50.

You then repeated it here
http://able2know.org/topic/44061-734#post-3798615
Ionus wrote:
You really should feel some embarrasement when you say stupid things. It will help the learning process for you. There are only two possibilities. Win or lose. These are 50/50 chances.


Perhaps YOU should read what you write Ionus. There is no question that you claimed the odds of winning the lottery is 50/50. Since the ONLY way to win the lottery is to pick the correct numbers, the odds of winning are NOT 50/50.

Until you can explain how the odds of winning the lottery are 50/50 and provide mathematical evidence, I see no reason for anyone to trust you when it comes to statistics.


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  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 10:25 am
Quote:
I thought we agreed the highs and lows were accurately measured ? Did you understand so little or are you joking ? Are you doing art at school ?

If the highs are accurate and the lows are accurate, then that would mean graphing the highs would be accurate and graphing the lows would be accurate, would it not?

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  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 04:48 pm
Quote:
If the highs are accurate and the lows are accurate, then that would mean graphing the highs would be accurate and graphing the lows would be accurate, would it not?

Correct.
View Profile Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 05:04 pm
It was in your reference to what I said:
Quote:
...the first point is to list all possibilities and give them an equal chance of occurring. Then begins the analysis. Why is that so hard to understand ?

I find I have to repeat myself a lot with you. Again, why is that so hard to understand ????? Think of it like a light switch. It is either off or on. Never both. These have a 50/50 probablity. Other factors influence whether it is found off or on. These give you the chance of it being off or on at a particluar time. Is this some game to you were you stall, obfuscate and deny ?

In Lotto there are two possibilities. Win or lose (actually there is a third state, a draw even, but you are having enough trouble) are the two possibilities. The chances of one of those for any given individual are not known as there are too many variables. So it is estimated by mathematics what they are statistically.

Quote:
Perhaps YOU should read what you write Ionus.
Perhaps YOU should read what I write parados.

http://able2know.org/topic/44061-734#post-3798615<br />
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  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 09:34 am
So.. if I ask you to choose a number from 1 to 3, you think the odds of you picking the correct one is 1 out of 2?


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  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 09:36 am
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
If the highs are accurate and the lows are accurate, then that would mean graphing the highs would be accurate and graphing the lows would be accurate, would it not?

Correct.


So.. if the highs show a trend and the lows show a trend then we can find the trend of BOTH by simply averaging the two. (simple algebra)
View Profile sumac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 09:38 am
Can we have a cessation of this?
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 11:34 am
What the hell, why not discuss more stuff that doesn't deal with the actual causes of climate change?

ASSUME:
(1) There are 1,000 electronic thermometers distributed uniformly over the entire surface of the earth, including its lands, oceans, and surface waters;
(2) The temperatures in each thermometer is recorded electronically in a common computerized data base each second of every year;

How would you compute the average annual global temperature for each year within a 100 year period, and for the entire 100 year period?
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  0  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 11:54 am
You could compute it any way you want. If you don't like the way science does it then tell us why they are doing it wrong and be specific about it. This vague crap you guys post is nothing but crap.

You don't like their specifics but you can't put up your own. The problem ican, is the stuff you post doesn't support your idiotic conclusions. Science is such that most reasonable people using the same facts would come to similar conclusions or if not would show why they come to a different one. You guys just spout stuff and then prove you are wrong by posting stuff over and over that disputes what you said.
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  1  
Reply Sun 1 Nov, 2009 04:50 pm
Quote:
So.. if the highs show a trend and the lows show a trend then we can find the trend of BOTH by simply averaging the two. (simple algebra)

Incorrect.
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