Civilization - How Do We Define Civilized Society

For centuries, the definition of "civilized" in the Western world has been the ability to project one's power onto smaller, generally weaker, nations and thereby impose one's will upon them. That and Christianity.

And apparently a penchant for unconscious irony.

We tend to consider ad "uncivilized" those people or societies which we fail to understand.

This is one of the biggest reasons why imperial powers have crushed the peoples who they did not consider to be equal. e.g. colonists hunting down the aboriginal peoples of Australia or North America.

As well as a difference in religion, differences in economics can also be resented today - any society which does not embrace market capitalism is now thought of as uncivilized.

There are other ways to live. We should try to understand them first, before we react, which all too often means forcing our ideas on others.

Often "civilization" can be the acceptable name for "repression" ...Hmm, I'll need to think about that one a bit more.

Hey. kitchenpete, welcome to A2k.

My purpose in posting this topic was that more and more I am hearing US Officials referring to protecting the civilized world from Saddam & Iraq. Apparently the definition of civilization is determined by what ever country or groups of countries that have the biggest Army or cache of weapons. Thank you both for posting responses so whoever has the most power at any particular time assumes the right to say that the countries or peoples they want to dominated are not civilized.

Really I have to say I am not proud that the US thinks of itself as the leader of the civilized world.

Civilization is the cultural norms accepted by organized groups. All civilizations are typified by standards of law, behavior and value systems. There are a lot of different civilizations in the world today. Chinese Civilization has long had great impact upon its Asian neighbors. Indian Civilization gave rise to Buddhism. Ancient Egypt and Persia were great civilizations whose values were passed down through the generations. Islamic values and civilization have spread across southern Asia from North Africa to the China Sea. All civilizations tend to be chauvinistic, some more so than others.

What do our leaders mean when they talk of protecting civilization? Why, they are talking about Western Civilization of course. We hold certain values respecting human life and dignity that is not always present in other civilizations. We have expectations about maintaining a balance between individual and State, of the rule of law and justice. We place a high value on liberty. We are secular and demand separation between State and religion. We are materialistic, having in science and technology to make our lives easy and secure. We are optimistic. We see progress toward a better future. We believe in literacy and education so that each individual can make the most of their natural gifts. These are all positive things in Western Civilization, and we should be rightly proud of our accomplishments.

We don't need others to point out our failings, we know them well and struggle continually to work toward a future in which there is no evil, no injustice. We tend to be arrogant, and self-righteous. We are idealists in an imperfect world. We want to be loved and can't understand why anyone would dislike us. We expect that everyone wants the same things we want. We find it hard to believe that some women in the Islamic world don't regard their lives behind the veil as wrong, or unjust. Why would anyone put his or her religious scruples above material gain? How could a people be content to live in a country ruled by autocratic religious conservatives? Why does the world envy the life they see on the screen, yet want to destroy its foundations? Can it be at least possible that they are as right as we are? Perhaps.

Western Civilization began expansion in the early 16th century armed with technology that made conquest relatively easy. There was a period of Imperialism and Colonialism. The world today was shaped by events that happened over four hundred years, and the clock can not be turned back. If Chinese Civilization had developed its inventions into advanced technology and begun to expand, it may have become the dominent power in the 20th century. It did not. If Islam had been successful in occupying Europe, perhaps today Islamic Civilization would be triumphant. It did not. Western Civilization is not today pursuing either Imperialism, nor Colonialism. We are pursuing world stability and peace. Some amoung us want to make the world over in our image. That is happening, not through any conscious plan but by the seductiveness of our media images. Television and movies express the longing of many of our people, and producers are very good at catering to our desires. Desires that are also seductive and threatening to other civilizations.

However, we don't belong to any of those other civilizations, and some of them have declared war upon us. Some of them believe that we are the instruments of Satan and want to destroy Western Civilization. We can, and should seek to understand them, but make no mistake we have been attacked, and will be attacked again. We should not deceive ourselves about this, if we do not resist eventually we will perish. Western Civilization can fall and be replaced by some other civilization. Choose. Do you want to live, and have your children and grandchildren live in an Islamic Civilization, or in a world where Western Civilization is dominant? Our civilization recognizes the right of others to have their own civilization and cultural values. Our enemy does not concede that any civilization but their own should exist. Choose.

No choice is necessary and that rhetoric is the stuff of bumper stickers and Republican campaign slogans. If we use our imaginations and pay attention to history, we can picture western civilization declining or falling, someday. But there is no Adolph Hitler or Joseph Stalin threatening to take over the world. There is no invader anywhere near our doorstep. And most importantly there is no civilization that wants to see western civilization fall. There are plenty of Muslims who do, but there are far more that don't.

There are different ways that we can pursue world stability and peace. Believing that the so-called enemy is a unified force, much less a civilization, who are united in an epic struggle for world domination isn't helping in that respect. The Arab world is overwhelmingly on the west's side against terrorists in the long run, even if some can't give complete support for political reasons. Jordan's King Abdullah and Egypt's Mubarak for two, take big risks in their vocal support of the U.S. fight against terrorism. But the risks come not from losing the support of the majorities of their peoples, but from assassination or coup by terrorists and splinter groups. They are able to lend this vocal, as well as military and financial, support, because they know their peoples support them - they are Muslims, but they are not part of any vast idealogical struggle for world domination.

I appreciate the eloquence of your posts, asherman, you are interesting and enlightening to read.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I have enjoyed reading them.

Asherman is talking about the general definition: what makes a society civilized ?

Of course it is the common acceptance of a wide variety of values, interests, including economic, cultural, housing and food service, dress and religious codes. for without this common acceptance, there can be no civilization.

I often think that 'civilization' may be defined as the 'common acceptance of inequality,' among a certain people. This is basically irrational, but done for the 'common good.'

That is, a hungry animal, on seeing another of their species carrying a big mouthful of food, will challenge the other for a share. The bigger wins, or in some species, there is a 'sharing.'

But human beings do NOT do this in 'civilized' societies. If a poor, hungry soul sees another carrying many packages of groceries, for example, he will NOT attack the other. He may whimper, but then accept his fate. The 'rich' one is presumed to 'own' his bounty by right ++ right of civilization.

[Of course, should the thief exhibit 'uncivilized' behavoir he shall be punished, if caught.]

It is 'civilized', therefore, to accept one's relatively lowly state.

But the rest of the postings, after Asherman, talk about cross-cultural evaluations, a different matter. There, even the use of chop-sticks or fingers may be a determinant of a judgement whether another is 'civilized.'

Since there are no 'international police' to enforce any international standard. the definition of 'civilized' in the international arena is determined, in fact, by the stronger. This is basically irrational.

i am pondering this and will provide a dyslexic analysis tomorrow,

It is was past tomorrow Dys where is your answer still in yesterday I suppose?

ok, first of all civilization is not a noun, it is a dynamic, or if you will a process that is fluid. It is the interplay of society and culture, society being numerically, spatially and temporally limited. Society is a record of its past, its history, ergo, record keeping is crucial to maintaining order. What we might call the bureaucracy of society is born out of the need for verification of entitlements of the members of the society and the authority of the society is determined by its power in imposing its validity against other societies. Society is inherently based on power which it needs to sustain itself. The thief acknowledges the act of thievery only because he acknowledges the legitamacy of the power of the authority. Culture on the other hand, contradicts society by being infinite and without boundary, anyone can participate in culture anywhere and anytime. It is without membership and its history is understandable only as narrative with a future defined as horizon (without definition) for it is always relative to the viewer. Culture has no power because it is not in conflict. Society is scripted and deviation disallowed as being antisocial. Law, a primary function of society establishes boundries over property and to prevent changes in the rules of property resulting in such institutions as academic accreditation, licensure, ordination and legislation. Properly speaking culture is infinite and society is finite. Culture continues what Mozart and Rembrandt had themselves continued by way of their work; an original, or deviant, shaping of the tradition they received, original enough that he does not invite duplication of itself by others, but invites the originality of others in response. In sumation, hopefully coherent, society provides its members with the rules and culture provides participants with a tradition. The result being Civilization.

Thank you Dys

An individual is civilized when he realizes his duties to the nation.
A nation is civilized when it realizes its duties to the people.