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Is Jesus true man AND true God?

 
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Dec, 2016 06:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I find the sacrifice of Jesus as a non-sacrifice. He wasn't dead; he just slept for a few hours.
A real sacrifice doesn't come back to life.



Yes.

And not only that, he knew at the very beginning that the people could neither do harm to, nor inflict pain on him (today's doctors make you feel no pain when performing operations for you, replacing your heart, removing your arms or legs... And God, if being eternal and omnipotent, would be greatest doctor.). His true self may have been on the cloud, invisibly grinning at the silly people. He simply fooled them all and took a great pleasure from it.

If Cicerone Imposter knew the trick, he'd "sacrifice" himself and won the greatest glory of all time: The Salvation of humankind.

Forever admired for the heroic feat, CI would have been worshiped by countless believers and sung: Hallelujah! Imposter Christ! You are the Way!
0 Replies
 
peacecrusader888
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2016 06:33 pm
@oristarA,
oristarA says:
Have you difficulty in understanding English version of the Holy Bible:

My reply:
Who has difficulty in understanding the English version of the Holy Bible: you or I? The Holy Bible says that "the earth was without form, and void." What does void mean? Empty, vacant. God says that He is "the first and the last" . How can you say that BOTH God and water were the first? Change now.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Dec, 2016 08:06 pm
@peacecrusader888,
How do you reconcile all the contradictions in the Bible?

http://www.answering-christianity.com/101_bible_contradictions.htm
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:47 am
@peacecrusader888,
Your English is stunningly poor. Now open your eyes wide and see:

"And the earth was...void." It is the earth that was void! Where were/are the waters then? The waters could exist above/in the firmament, the sky! That is, the existence of the waters does not rely on the earth!

With or without the earth, waters are almost everywhere in the Universe!

See the achievement of Human's cosmic science (from NASA):
Quote:
On 22 July 2011 a report described the discovery of a gigantic cloud of water vapor containing "140 trillion times more water than all of Earth's oceans combined" around a quasar located 12 billion light years from Earth. According to the researchers, the "discovery shows that water has been prevalent in the universe for nearly its entire existence"

NASA: Astronomers Find Largest, Most Distant Reservoir of Water


peacecrusader888 wrote:

My reply:
Who has difficulty in understanding the English version of the Holy Bible: you or I? The Holy Bible says that "the earth was without form, and void." What does void mean? Empty, vacant. God says that He is "the first and the last" . How can you say that BOTH God and water were the first? Change now.
0 Replies
 
trevorw2539
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:44 pm
Jesus was a Jewish preacher - nothing more. If you study the OT as it was written, in the time it was written, there is nothing that refers to Jesus in the OT.
Christianity has taken parts of the OT out of context to fulfil its dream. Even the much quoted Isaiah 53 (4th of the Servant Songs) refers to Israel, the servant of Jahweh. Look at the whole book. It refers to nothing but Israel as Jahweh's servant. It looks forward to the Jewish Messianic age where the world will look upon the suffering of the 'servant' nation of Israel. People often refer to their nation in the singular. USA to include all the people. Britain ditto.
Israel was both Jahweh's child/son Hosea 11:1. (Son). Verse 5 - HE. (Israel).
Read in context the Christian quotes and you will see their real truth.

The belief that Jesus believed everything that he quoted from the OT because he was divine is often put forward. Not necessarily true. He was brought up and taught from the age of 5 to believe the Torah and there was none of the knowledge we have today to dispute that. Many Christians believe because they were brought up to believe. You can't blame parents for that. Finding the truth is down to the individual.

Jesus was a Jewish Preacher. Put aside Christian teaching of the gospel writers and you will see a Jew, concerned with the religious state of the Religious Leadership, who spoke out and paid the penalty of death. Even some of the events that are recorded are in line with Judaism.




timur
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2016 12:50 pm
trevorw2539 wrote:
Jesus was a Jewish Preacher

And you know that how?
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2016 01:11 pm
@timur,
timur wrote:

trevorw2539 wrote:
Jesus was a Jewish Preacher

And you know that how?


He only refers to the Torah a few dozen times. It's true if you know the history of the myth of Jesus he was a Jew. He wasn't trying to create Christianity at all. He was just over zealous trying to get Jews in line with the old laws and traditions they had ignored since they were oppressed by Greek and Roman occupiers. It's well known if you don't limit your Christian history lesson to a church pastor.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2016 01:44 pm
@Krumple,
Good lesson. Go beyond what you hear from your preacher, and rely more on science.
0 Replies
 
trevorw2539
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2016 02:08 pm
@timur,
Most of what he taught was Judaism orientated if you ignore the Christian additions later. He only entertained the Jews, he refused to allow the disciples to approach Gentiles. He used the Jewish way of teaching, by parables and poetic language. Many of his parable were actually taken from the Tanakh and understood by his people. The Shepherd, the Vineyard etc are all concerned with Israel in the Tanakh. His baptism was in line with cleansing by water - Judaism. His temptation was in line with temptation in Judaism, but not by Satan the enemy of god - created by Christianity, but by HaSatan, created by Jahweh as a servant who had the 'job' of testing men's faith. Lot passed, as did Jesus.
Jesus obeyed Moses laws, but not always those stupid regulations made up by the Pharisees. He died for upsetting the Religious leaders

Let me say straight away I am talking about what I see the Bible is saying. Not what I necessarily believe.

I studied the Bible for many years as a Christian. I am now agnostic due to those studies.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Dec, 2016 11:38 pm
Quote:


Did historical Jesus really exist? The evidence just doesn’t add up.
There are clearly good reasons to doubt Jesus’ historical existence.

By Raphael Lataster
(WashingtonPost)

Did a man called Jesus of Nazareth walk the earth? Discussions over whether the figure known as the “Historical Jesus” actually existed primarily reflect disagreements among atheists. Believers, who uphold the implausible and more easily-dismissed “Christ of Faith” (the divine Jesus who walked on water), ought not to get involved.

Numerous secular scholars have presented their own versions of the so-called “Historical Jesus” – and most of them are, as biblical scholar J.D. Crossan puts it, “an academic embarrassment.” From Crossan’s view of Jesus as the wise sage, to Robert Eisenman’s Jesus the revolutionary, and Bart Ehrman’s apocalyptic prophet, about the only thing New Testament scholars seem to agree on is Jesus’ historical existence. But can even that be questioned?

The first problem we encounter when trying to discover more about the Historical Jesus is the lack of early sources. The earliest sources only reference the clearly fictional Christ of Faith. These early sources, compiled decades after the alleged events, all stem from Christian authors eager to promote Christianity – which gives us reason to question them. The authors of the Gospels fail to name themselves, describe their qualifications, or show any criticism with their foundational sources – which they also fail to identify. Filled with mythical and non-historical information, and heavily edited over time, the Gospels certainly should not convince critics to trust even the more mundane claims made therein.

The methods traditionally used to tease out rare nuggets of truth from the Gospels are dubious. The criterion of embarrassment says that if a section would be embarrassing for the author, it is more likely authentic. Unfortunately, given the diverse nature of Christianity and Judaism back then (things have not changed all that much), and the anonymity of the authors, it is impossible to determine what truly would be embarrassing or counter-intuitive, let alone if that might not serve some evangelistic purpose.

The criterion of Aramaic context is similarly unhelpful. Jesus and his closest followers were surely not the only Aramaic-speakers in first-century Judea. The criterion of multiple independent attestation can also hardly be used properly here, given that the sources clearly are not independent.

Paul’s Epistles, written earlier than the Gospels, give us no reason to dogmatically declare Jesus must have existed. Avoiding Jesus’ earthly events and teachings, even when the latter could have bolstered his own claims, Paul only describes his “Heavenly Jesus.” Even when discussing what appear to be the resurrection and the last supper, his only stated sources are his direct revelations from the Lord, and his indirect revelations from the Old Testament. In fact, Paul actually rules out human sources (see Galatians 1:11-12).

Also important are the sources we don’t have. There are no existing eyewitness or contemporary accounts of Jesus. All we have are later descriptions of Jesus’ life events by non-eyewitnesses, most of whom are obviously biased. Little can be gleaned from the few non-Biblical and non-Christian sources, with only Roman scholar Josephus and historian Tacitus having any reasonable claim to be writing about Jesus within 100 years of his life. And even those sparse accounts are shrouded in controversy, with disagreements over what parts have obviously been changed by Christian scribes (the manuscripts were preserved by Christians), the fact that both these authors were born after Jesus died (they would thus have probably received this information from Christians), and the oddity that centuries go by before Christian apologists start referencing them.

Agnosticism over the matter is already seemingly appropriate, and support for this position comes from independent historian Richard Carrier’s recent defense of another theory — namely, that the belief in Jesus started as the belief in a purely celestial being (who was killed by demons in an upper realm), who became historicized over time. To summarize Carrier’s 800-page tome, this theory and the traditional theory – that Jesus was a historical figure who became mythicized over time – both align well with the Gospels, which are later mixtures of obvious myth and what at least sounds historical.

The Pauline Epistles, however, overwhelmingly support the “celestial Jesus” theory, particularly with the passage indicating that demons killed Jesus, and would not have done so if they knew who he was (see: 1 Corinthians 2:6-10). Humans – the murderers according to the Gospels – of course would still have killed Jesus, knowing full well that his death results in their salvation, and the defeat of the evil spirits.

So what do the mainstream (and non-Christian) scholars say about all this? Surprisingly very little – of substance anyway. Only Bart Ehrman and Maurice Casey have thoroughly attempted to prove Jesus’ historical existence in recent times. Their most decisive point? The Gospels can generally be trusted – after we ignore the many, many bits that are untrustworthy – because of the hypothetical (i.e. non-existent) sources behind them. Who produced these hypothetical sources? When? What did they say? Were they reliable? Were they intended to be accurate historical portrayals, enlightening allegories, or entertaining fictions?

Ehrman and Casey can’t tell you – and neither can any New Testament scholar. Given the poor state of the existing sources, and the atrocious methods used by mainstream Biblical historians, the matter will likely never be resolved. In sum, there are clearly good reasons to doubt Jesus’ historical existence – if not to think it outright improbable.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Dec, 2016 01:13 pm
@oristarA,
The story of Jesus feeding 4000 with 7 loaves of bread sounds too fishy to accept. Why 4000 and 7? Why not 400 and 7?
Why he would perform a miracle for 4000 and there are no other historical record of the event tells us all we need to know. Surely, Jesus would have made sure some of those witnesses would have made a record of this fete/miracle.
Smileyrius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2016 05:15 am
@cicerone imposter,
Perhaps this was a man who did not perform miracles for grandeur alone, remember it was a crowd of peasants who had followed him along the shore that he fed. I wouldn't expect many of them had the ability to record it, and Jesus was often modest in his dealings. He was recorded several times as telling people not to tell of miracles he had performed. Had Jesus performed his miracles in the palaces and in the public places, they may have been better recorded. Rather he often performed his miracles in quiet places, with the lowly people, he selected his Apostles from these ones also (Paul less so).
From my reading, Jesus wanted the message to survive longer than the lore of his miracles. The miracles gave credence to his label as the awaited Messiah but were not centric to his ministry.

This is not a testimony to his existence, but merely a suggestion as to why he may not be as recorded as you may hope he would be, according to the stories
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Dec, 2016 11:52 am
@Smileyrius,
Verbal history of major events in human history has survived.
0 Replies
 
trevorw2539
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2016 12:55 pm
Doesn't anyone wonder who actually counted 4000 and 5000 men? Or why those men were not at work? People still had to earn a living in those days.
Large 'Numbers' in the Bible are simply a way of saying there were many. The OT is full of ridiculous numbers. 600,000 men leaving Egypt at the mythical exodus. 1,000,000 Ethiopian soldiers invading and fighting King Asa. 800,000 Israelis (Northern tribe) versus 500,000 Soldiers of Judah. (Southern tribe).
That's 1,300,000 soldiers. There wasn't an Empire of the time that could raise an army a fraction of that size - let alone two small Hebrew states. The history of the two small 'states' of Israel and Judah has some validity as testified by archaeology, but knowledge of the times shows the exaggerations written in Jewish Scriptures. This carries forward into the NT times. Looking at the background shows the errors in scripture.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2016 01:14 pm
@trevorw2539,
Who had the wealth or wherewithal to provide food and water for that number of troops? The logistics is mind-boggling even today.
trevorw2539
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Dec, 2016 02:19 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The fact is that no-one did, and the figures are just silly. If you know the background and history etc of the time, the country could not have supported such a population to produce that many soldiers. And an Ethiopian army of that size is nonsense. The likelihood is that it was part of an Egyptian army containing Nubian/Ethiopian soldiers, and they never had an army of that size.
The Exodus is merely a Myth. As is most of the early part of the Bible.
0 Replies
 
peacecrusader888
 
  0  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2016 01:14 am
@trevorw2539,
trevorw2539 wrote:
Jesus was a Jewish preacher - nothing more. If you study the OT as it was written, in the time it was written, there is nothing that refers to Jesus in the OT.

My reply:
You acknowledge that Jesus existed here on earth. You acknowledge that He was a Jew. So He is true man. Why does the Old Testament not mention Jesus at all? Because Jesus was not born yet. He is another person in the Holy Trinity.
giujohn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2016 09:53 am
This world would have and would be a much more peaceful place without religion... The cruelest joke ever played on mankind.
0 Replies
 
trevorw2539
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2016 09:58 am
@peacecrusader888,
Then why does Matthew quote the OT when trying to prove Jesus was divine? Why is Christianity based on the belief that the OT prophesies foretell the coming of Jesus?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Dec, 2016 05:49 pm
@trevorw2539,
Only the devine one can come back to earth from the dead/heaven, but that's all fiction.

Quote:
Second Coming
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Second Coming (sometimes called the Second Advent or the Parousia) is a Christian and Muslim concept regarding the future return of Jesus to Earth after his "first coming" and ascension to heaven about two thousand years ago. The belief is based on messianic prophecies found in the canonical gospels and is part of most Christian eschatologies. Views about the nature of Jesus' Second Coming vary among Christian denominations and among individual Christians.


0 Replies
 
 

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