German public pool bans the burqini, what do you think?

@Walter Hinteler,

In Olympic-sized pools (and some junior Olympic-sized ones), they divide the pool into sections - youth leisure/adult leisure/training - during some open swim times.

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@ehBeth,

Ok. And you know the situation in Neutraubling? I don't.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Quote Walter:

Quote:

Just as a side note: this has nothing to do with the federal and/or state government but is a by-law by the local municipality as owner of the pool. (We certainly have no public pools owned by the federal government, and I'm rather sure no state is the owner of a public pool either.)

I'll go over how it works in the US, and you can tell me how it is different in Germany. The Bill Of Rights guarantees that Congress, (Federal Government), can not establish a religion, which has been interpreted to mean that you can't discriminate against a religion.

Later, with the 14th Amendment, the rights guaranteed in the Federal Constitution also apply to the states. So the states cannot establish a religion, or discriminate against one.

If a local or municipal law discriminates against a religion, it gets struck down because a local or municipal law cannot overrule the state and Federal guarantee of freedom of religion.

How would this differ in Germany?

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@Blickers,

I've made exams in Constitutional Law at university and have a degree in public administration. But the question how a municipal by-law regulation the use of their pool is connected to the federal or state constitution .... well, I had to look it up (and have additionally no idea about the Bavarian constitution).

Swimsuits aren't thought to be a religious item here. Besides that, religion is separated from federal (state) affairs.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Correcting my above response a bit:
In 2013 Germany' federal administrative court (such is an administrative legal thing here) has ruled that schools can require Muslim girls to participate in co-ed swimming classes. The court stated that in order to respect their religious dress codes, girls are allowed to wear a full-body bathing suit. (Lower administrative courts had made different rulings before.)

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@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

If a local or municipal law discriminates against a religion, it gets struck down because a local or municipal law cannot overrule the state and Federal guarantee of freedom of religion.

How would this differ in Germany?

It doesn't get struck down automatically.You go the normal way over the 'line' of administration courts and then to the federal/state constitutional court (or try it directly to the constitutional court).

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@Walter Hinteler,

Same way here. You start at the lower courts, and normally it goes up the line to the Supreme Court or the highest court that has agreed to hear the appeal of the loser of the previous court's ruling.

PS: But if I understand you correctly, a higher court can eventually strike down the municipal government's law or procedures?

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@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

But if I understand you correctly, a higher court can eventually strike down the municipal government's law or procedures?

That can be done already by the (lowest) Administrative Court. Usually, High Administrative Courts make the final ruling if the one of the lower court is 'liked' by one side.
Above that is the Federal Administrative Court.

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@ehBeth,

ehBeth wrote:

In Olympic-sized pools (and some junior Olympic-sized ones), they divide the pool into sections - youth leisure/adult leisure/training - during some open swim times.

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Ok. And you know the situation in Neutraubling? I don't.

They got two pools.a so-called 'family pool' for non-swimmers and one (25m long, slightly going down to 2.8 m depth). Sport associations have their training hours when closed.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Yes, over here the lowest state court can rule that a municipal procedure or by-law is unconstitutional as well. The loser can try for an appeal to a higher court, but there is no guarantee that an appeal will be heard. That higher court will decide if the application to have an appeal heard is accepted.

Okay, so you have a multiple judge panel ruling on a court? So you are saying that an appeal must be accepted by the higher court if the lower court ruling is not unanimous, but there is no appeal if the lower court ruling is unanimous?

What I am getting at is that it looks like the municipal by-law violates religious freedom, but nobody in Germany has ever gone to court to get it struck down on that basis yet.

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@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

What I am getting at is that it looks like the municipal by-law violates religious freedom, but nobody in Germany has ever gone to court to get it struck down on that basis yet.

Because swimwear isn't thought to affect religious freedom as laid down in our constitution.

Quote:

Article 4 (Freedom of faith, of conscience and of creed)
(1) Freedom of faith and of conscience, and freedom of creed religious or ideological, are inviolable.
(2) The undisturbed practice of religion is guaranteed.
(3) No one may be compelled against his conscience to render war service as an armed combatant. Details will be regulated by a Federal law.

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@Blickers,

Blickers wrote:

Okay, so you have a multiple judge panel ruling on a court? So you are saying that an appeal must be accepted by the higher court if the lower court ruling is not unanimous, but there is no appeal if the lower court ruling is unanimous?

Not quite so.
Some rulings even of the lowest Administration Court are final - that has nothing to do with unanimousity (you don't know here, if a judge opposed a ruling [at these courts], you just need the majority.)
The way, if and when appeals can be done, is regulation in the Code of Administrative Court Procedure - see here: 12th Chapter:
Appeal on points of fact and law

This and perhaps some more answers to your question is better expaned here (pdf-download): ADMINISTRATIVE JUSTICE IN EUROPE
– Report for Germany–

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@maxdancona,

There is a real reason for it, just not the one they gave.

European Muslims have, in general, abused their multi-cultural welcome and now they are facing a backlash. These pendulum swings are never moderate.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

I think you have that backwards Finn.

The United States has done a great job for decades integrating immigrants, including Muslims into American culture. (And, yes I stand by that in spite of the recent terror attack). I would far rather live in the United States than Europe as either a Muslim or a Christian or an Atheist.

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@maxdancona,

Depends on where.

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@DrewDad,

Germany doesn't have to be a theocracy if a young woman is living in a community that polices her behavior. I mean if her brother gets pissed, he can make up some lie about her, and dad can burn her to death to uphold the family honor.

It just happens too often.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Germany doesn't have to be a theocracy if a young woman is living in a community that polices her behavior. I mean if her brother gets pissed, he can make up some lie about her, and dad can burn her to death to uphold the family honor.

I don't like these by.laws.
But we have a lot of laws and bylaws which policy our behaviour.
And not just the brother of of this lady and her dad can get pissed, anyone else. And anyone's else brother and dad.

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

There is a real reason for it, just not the one they gave.

This bylaw is (at least, the related paragraph) from 1975.

If I remember correctly, the reason for it (at least for similar around here) was always "hygiene" and to get sinks free.
Can you enlighten me for others? And how do you know it? (It actually follows the ideas [and basically the wordings] set up by Bavarian Association of Towns and Municipalities.)

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@Walter Hinteler,

Just to verify: the complaint by those female visitors, which resulted that part of the by-law had been put as a sign on the pool's entrance, certainly points to xenophobic and/or racist, at least right-conservative ideas ("Müssen wir Deutschen uns denn alles gefallen lassen?" - Have we Germans to tolerate everything?) [Or a lawyer had been in that group Wink

]

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

Germany doesn't have to be a theocracy if a young woman is living in a community that polices her behavior. I mean if her brother gets pissed, he can make up some lie about her, and dad can burn her to death to uphold the family honor.

It just happens too often.

It is just an aside to the topic of this thread.
The USA has about 3.3 million Muslims. Slightly less than 6 million Muslims live in Germany.
About 27 so-called honour killings happen in the USA per year. In Germany it is 5 (officially) to 12 (estimated), not only done by Muslims (religion isn't noted).

1 Reply

German public pool bans the burqini, what do you think?

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