Rising fascism in the US

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

I am bemused to find a European (I suspect a Briton) here accusing of racism and anti semitism.
[...]
These are no longer current issues, and we don't generally raise them up. However, I believe old europe should recall more of his own history from the high place on which he sits in judgment of us.

I'm involved as long as I've aware of it (well, from grammar school times onwards, to be precise) in actions of various kinds against racism and antisemitism.
Certainly we've got a lot of such in history, get it again, and historically Germany (and/or the numerous German countries of the past) perhaps has got the worst past here.

But I don't think that thus I have to shut my eyes and stay quiet in the corner when something like that happens again, e.g. outside Europe.

[I always thought of old europe as Vieille Europe]

1 Reply

@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

But I don't think that thus I have to shut my eyes and stay quiet in the corner when something like that happens again, e.g. outside Europe.

What are you saying here? Do you support old europe's claims of pervasive racism and anti semitism in the United States?

We are, in fact, rather transparent - everything is there to view. There is no shortage of rough edges and friction among the various regional, ethnic, racial (to the extent that is a meaningful word anymore) and religious/secular groups in this country. It is all very evident. However no nation in Europe, new or old, has achieved anything even close to the assimilation and cultural synthesis as has the Uniuted States. We had a lot of accidental help in doing this - lots of available land for expansion; ample natural resources and troubles & revolution in the "old world" etc. In addition we have our serious contradictions, slavery and a dose of intolerance , but in a bloody civil war and other actions we have attempted to deal with it. And we have done it.

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And we have done it.

Drunk

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@georgeob1,

This is such a weird thread of logic that you keep spinning out over and again, George, whenever someone who's not American dares express an opinion about the US.

We are all talking as individuals, not as representatives of nations. We are looking at issues and stories that interest us and that matter to us - and due to America's unique globe-spanning power, everything about US politics matters to us all. There's no reason why any of us should shut up about it because of where we were born or what the original sins of our own countries are supposed to be. Old Europe has opinions about Europe as well as the US, and he's entitled to express either, just like you are. It's not like people such as Old Europe, Walter or Blatham won't criticize troublesome developments and histories in other countries, including their own.

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@nimh,

I wish I'd seen you scold Izzy and others similarly when they say we have no business speaking of issues in Britain or other European countries.

The one-sidedness of this issue is irritating.

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@Lash,

Lash wrote:

I wish I'd seen you scold Izzy and others similarly when they say we have no business speaking of issues in Britain or other European countries.

The one-sidedness of this issue is irritating.

I haven't seen that. If I had, I'd have scolded their scolding. Smile

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McCarthy-ism among establishment democrats cited by Russia scholars who don't buy the Democrat party line.

http://m.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/stephen_cohen_the_new_york_times_is_enabling_a_new_20161215

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@nimh,

nimh wrote:

Old Europe has opinions about Europe as well as the US, and he's entitled to express either, just like you are. It's not like people such as Old Europe, Walter or Blatham won't criticize troublesome developments and histories in other countries, including their own.

Your proposition here may be true, however I have seen no evidence of it from either Old Europe or Blatham. Their commentary here appears to be only about the United States, and in Blatham's case obsessively so. Walter, I'll agree, far is more circumspect in his comments about others, as I believe am I.

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Meanwhile, over in Europe, nationalists and right-wing extremists are building coalitions:

Quote:

Austria’s Far Right Signs a Cooperation Pact With Putin’s Party

BERLIN — The leader of the Austrian far-right Freedom Party has signed what he called a cooperation agreement with Russia’s ruling party and recently met with Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, the designated national security adviser to President-elect Donald J. Trump of the United States.

Word of the agreement with Russia was the latest sign that the Kremlin is forging bonds with political parties across Europe in what some European leaders suspect is a coordinated attempt to meddle in their affairs and potentially weaken Western democracies. Many of these efforts are murky and involve obscure groups, and it is unclear whether President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia has any direct involvement.

[...]

The FPÖ - the Freedom Party of Austria - was founded in 1956 by Anton Reinthaller.

Reinthaller had joined the SS in December 1938 and become a member of the Reichstag, then served as Minister for Agriculture, was appointed Undersecretary of State to the Reich Ministry of Food and Agriculture, and held a number of positions for the Nazis, including Gauamtsleiter and honorary Brigadeführer in the SS.

In the first round of the 2016 Austrian Presidential election, the social democrats and the conservatives placed fourth and fifth respectively, leading to a run-off election between the Green Party and FPÖ candidates. The Green Party eventually won the election, and their candidate will be sworn in January 2017.

Now, current party leader Heinz-Christian Strache announced not only that the FPÖ recently signed a cooperation deal with Putin's United Russia party. He also wrote on his facebook page that has met with incoming national security adviser Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn in Trump Tower.

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@old europe,

old europe wrote:

In the first round of the 2016 Austrian Presidential election, the social democrats and the conservatives placed fourth and fifth respectively, leading to a run-off election between the Green Party and FPÖ candidates. The Green Party eventually won the election, and their candidate will be sworn in January 2017.

The center cannot hold it seems.

Madness.

People appear to be looking for a revolution.

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@old europe,

To what local political factors do you attribute the apparent rise of center right and right wing parties in France, Austria and lately Germany? In what ways are the determative issues there different from those in the United States?

Indeed one could add the UK to the list, but that might not be fair considering the apparent unelectability of the current leadership of the Labour Party.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

To what local political factors do you attribute the apparent rise of center right and right wing parties in France, Austria and lately Germany?

You didn't ask me, but I'll respond (too).

Actually, especially in those mentioned countries, we always have had strong right and right wing parties- often, very often, as government parties.
What's on the rise now are extreme right-wing parties and groups which before had just a shadowy existence.

I don't think that there's one reason or the reason.
But I see it as a protest against democracy, a protest against the establishment, a call for nationalism, an expression of xenophobia and anti-semitism ... ... ...

And as different as all those extreme right wing parties might be - they work together.
And since in all those mentioned countries Russia (Russian oligarchs and Putin's political party) support and finance some of these extreme parties, another question would be why they do it.

The difference to the USA is my opinion that the your country has been generally (in my lifetime that is) more to the right than from a European point of view.

The European extreme right now might get profite from "Trump-effect" as they call it.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Thanks. It is amusing to me that Trump's social and economic policies are well to the left of all of his Republican opponents in the Primary, except perhaps John Kasich. Trump is very nationalistic and, in contrast to Obama, appears to be a man of action, while Obama appears to live in a dream world of naive abstractions, and appears to avoid either concrete action or contact with anyone who disagrees with him.

Indeed I find several similarities between Obama and Woodrow Wilson, by far our worst president in the 20th century. Wilson was an equally authoritarian and naive individual who preferred abstract concepts to action. He was led around by the nose by Lloyd George and Clemenceau in the 1919 Paris talks, but got his dream for a League of Nations and then was unable to persuade our Senate to approve it. I believe our 'isolationism' of the 1920s and 1930s was mostly reflective of popular disgust with Wilson.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Do you think it might be a reaction to what is called, capatilism. The inequality of the low and middle classes compared to the 1%?

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@RABEL222,

Partly at least. And this makes it even mysterious as this "anti-elitism" argument: many if not most leading figures of the extreme right belong to those groups.

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@Walter Hinteler,

It depends on how you define the groups. "Elitism" usually implies one who behaves as though he or she is inherently superior to others. Not everyone in positions of power or authority or even having some wealth and/or education behaves this way. In addition, many who behave in this manner have little education, authority or real experience themselves. Examples abound on these threads.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Right you are. I cant believe how people on the low end of the economy vote for billionaires thinking their going to improve their lot in life rather than make themselves richer.

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@georgeob1,

Like you and tRump?

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@georgeob1,

Quote georgeob1:

Quote:

Trump is very nationalistic and, in contrast to Obama, appears to be a man of action, while Obama appears to live in a dream world of naive abstractions, and appears to avoid either concrete action or contact with anyone who disagrees with him.

The record indicates otherwise. When Putin annexed the Crimea, which belonged to Ukraine, and fomented civil war in Eastern Ukraine, Obama got together with the EU to place economic sanctions aganst Russia, which hurt Russia econonically. Then Obama convinced the Saudis to keep oil production going, which cut the price of oil, Russia's main product. the price of oil fell precipitously.

As a result of Obama's negotiating skills, the Russian economy cratered. The Russian ruble fell to a value less than half it was before annexing the Crimea:

https://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah279/LeviStubbs/Ruble%20v%20Dollar%20May%202016_zpsigbbfj4c.jpg

The Russian economy went into a Depression and it hasn't gotten out yet. Check out the GDP of Russia before and after 2014, when Putin invaded Ukraine:

https://i1382.photobucket.com/albums/ah279/LeviStubbs/russia-gdp_zps8yr35zrs.png

Russia gets expansionist against a non-NATO country, Obama collapses Russia's economy. That is strong leadership. Notice that Putin is not going to make a move against Ukraine until Obama is out of office and Putin's admiring buddy, Trump, takes over.

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@Blickers,

I believe you are exaggerating Obama's actions - other motives were involved for the Saudis, and our own growing petroleum production - somethig that occurred despite Obama's efforts to curtail it was also at least as significant as the Saudi actions.

Anyway, I wonder how effective the Crimeans and the Ukranians thaught this was.

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Rising fascism in the US

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