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Tue 17 Aug, 2004 07:45 am
I see a lot of posts on topics like infinity and eternity and the like. When they contain anywhere between 100 and 1000 posts in a thread I have not the stamina to read them all, so my approach might already be taken.. Anyway, I just wondered what you guys think about it?
I believe that the concept of infinity is in no way an abstract concept, unlike the concepts of day to day time with terms like past and future.
I do not know latin, but I know that in the laguages that derive from latin the word "finito" means "finished". "Finite", as I understand it means "something that has an end", and "infinite" - unending, or "something that does not end". So, what do we know of that does not ever end? The only thing I can think of is the present. It never becomes future, and it was never past. It just is, now. It will not end either, but we can imagine that within it all things will.
So if the question is "Is the universe infinite?", my answer so far would be that it is infinite in the way that causality is infinite. Furthermore, because it is in causality that forever lies, and forever is what we humans experience as the present, I would argue that infinity is more real than one second, and eternity is more real than our ideas of past and future.
This would be entirely correct except that you cannot assume that the present or time itself is infinite. Scientifically, there are three arrows of time, directions in which time flows. The psychological arrow is the direction in which we percieve time to flow. The entropic arrow is the direction in which disorder increases in accordance with the entropic principle. The cosmic arrow is the direction in which the universe expands. However, since it's not yet clear whether the universe has enough inertia to overcome the gravitational constant, we don't know if the universe will keep expanding forever. If it doesn't, it will start to contract, reversing the cosmic arrow of time. This would probably also reverse the entropic arrow. We have no way of knowing what would happen to the psychological arrow. In any case, the universe would eventually collapse in a reverse Big Bang, called the Big Crunch. This would end all three arrows of time completely. Theoretically, there would be no more time.
Also, it has been speculated that there may not be time inside a black hole.
This topic has already been dealt with exhaustively. Among those hundred or so postings were a number of well-thought and expressed ideas. Many of those writing to the subject had special qualifications in the area, and spoke with some authority.
If you are really interested, I suggest that you read those posts. It really doesn't take that long to scan even relatively long threads. Skip the chaff, but take the time to follow the veins of high-quality ore. That is much more reasonable than to expect those people to repeatedly say what they have/had to say.
The concept of infinity allows us to easily speculate and thus solve otherwise impossibly complex mathematical equations.
Good point Asherman. I myself have even started a few of the threads that deal with this subject. But most of the threads I have read deal with terms like past and future as though they had any true meaning. That's no good... I do not expect anyone to repeat themselves, but I do not think this approach has been tried before here. Again I may be wrong...
And lordregent; can you prove to me that the present is not infinite, or to be more spesific: can you prove that the present is finite? I don't think you can, because I don't think it is. My arguments can be found in the initial post on this thread.
Re: Infinity
Cyracuz wrote:I see a lot of posts on topics like infinity and eternity and the like. When they contain anywhere between 100 and 1000 posts in a thread I have not the stamina to read them all, so my approach might already be taken.. Anyway, I just wondered what you guys think about it?
I believe that the concept of infinity is in no way an abstract concept, unlike the concepts of day to day time with terms like past and future.
I do not know latin, but I know that in the laguages that derive from latin the word "finito" means "finished". "Finite", as I understand it means "something that has an end", and "infinite" - unending, or "something that does not end". So, what do we know of that does not ever end? The only thing I can think of is the present. It never becomes future, and it was never past. It just is, now. It will not end either, but we can imagine that within it all things will.
So if the question is "Is the universe infinite?", my answer so far would be that it is infinite in the way that causality is infinite. Furthermore, because it is in causality that forever lies, and forever is what we humans experience as the present, I would argue that infinity is more real than one second, and eternity is more real than our ideas of past and future.
Infinity is word. It is a concept. It may be the canvas that our universe has been painted on. It may be an unending chain of "present moments". It may be pi. It may be everything and nothing at the same time. Buts lets step back from what it may be and think about what it is.
It would mean that there could be no such concept as a first peice of time. It would mean that there could be no such concept as a last peice of time. It would mean there would be no such concept as a smallest subdivision of time. It would mean there could be no such concept as a starting point to the universe in any direction. It would mean that starting from the outside boundary of our known universe there exists an infinite number of lines going in an infinite number of directions that never cross one another. It would mean that there could be no such concept as a smallest subdivision of distance. It would mean you could divide 30 seconds in half for an infinite chain of smaller time periods and 30 meters across in half for an infinite chain of smaller distances.
So infinity must be much more than an infinite progression of "present moments" but that does not mean that there are not an infinite number of "present moments"
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