How to know the true God

Terrible things.
How do you think those events fit into the grand scheme?

Man's ability to create destructive weapons hasn't ended yet. They have even created 'clean bombs.' Kill all life, but not the buildings. Mutual destruction is already upon us. So are many crazy leaders besides ISIS. One wonders if it's just a matter of time.

I guess if a god exists, the proof will be in the Nuclear Pudding

When I try to flap my arms and fail to fly I know beyond doubt that Reason and Order exists. I need no extra soup and spice to flavour my understanding and respect for REALITY as a whole.

Those events, plus all of the nuclear testing underground, in the sea, and in the air fit into the grand scheme of things without any interference from the god.

In the realm of expression of freedom There are countless examples of it coming with limitations (free speech/ yelling fire in a theater, etc). I can't think of any exception to freedom coming with limitations except for the freedom to decide for yourself where your loyalty lies which is the essence of free will in the context of this discussion.

But in the world you live in today, even the expression of free will is not limited by God. As I said before, the situations in which you or any other person could threaten God's main objective no longer exist (as it did in the time of Noah). The people whose loyalty belongs to God are too many and wide spread for anyone to be a threat to all who follow him.

Unless you want to make your case by citing those few exceptions in the long ago past, there is no practical limit to even your expression of free will by God.



That is a good question and one that is too rarely asked. I hope I can do it justice.

The reason it is so rarely thought about are the almost universal misconceptions about God himself. He is usually portrayed by religions as Omnipotent, a being so alien to man that we have no hope of comprehending him. A being with no needs that man could understand let alone fill.

Conversely, those without beliefs look at religion and see their God as some powerful but pathetic angry child threatening all who do not follow his arbitrary rules with death and/or torture for even thinking incorrectly. If you hold either of these views there is no chance you could ever come to know God's main objective. And even if you let go of those stereotypes I doubt you can fully grasp the simple truth of it without going to him yourself, but nevertheless, I will try.

I do not pretend to know the origin of God. I only know of him by first recognizing the workings of an intelligence other than man's and then by appealing to it for understanding. I do not hear voices (well, there was that one brief time) but by a process I won't have time to describe, he led me to know these things.

The basic scenario is not hard to visualize once you accept the possibility of a benevolent God not so different in nature than yourself other than not having physical limitations. Imagine yourself as this sentient being completely alone in existence. Intelligence naturally demands interaction, it craves grist for the mill, something to engage with. To put it simply, once you have mastered your surroundings, you long for companionship.

Having nothing but yourself to work with, creating a companion demands that you give of your own substance and power. So in spite of the inherent risk, you do. Having wanted and waited so long for it, you want it to be a worthy companion, able to relate to you as an equal. You separate yourself into equal parts, identical in every way except one. The created recognizes himself as having come from the creator, and so becomes the only begotten Son of God.

You may ask, with such a perfect companion why would either of them want more? Again, intelligence, sentience, self awareness or whatever you call it, demands it. We want variety. Rather than subdividing themselves as God did with his Son, they decided on something different in the interest of variety. And so began the plan of our creation.

It is not over yet but someday we will be ready to be companions of God. That is his main objective.

How many times do I have to reaffirm that we are not talking about free will as it pertains to human in their interactions with each other? We're talking about free will as it pertains to interactions between humans and the god! Also, I have explained how the god interfered with the free will of humans by ending their free will lives when it regretted creating them.

Really? You don't believe that nuclear contamination is not a threat to the god's objectives? Further, you seem to believe that the acts of the humans before the flood were of more consequence to the objective of the god than nuclear contamination of the land, air, and sea. That is an odd belief.

If I do that, then I will fall into the same trap as others. I would find myself projecting my own insecurities and motivations onto the god despite the fact that I have knowledge that the god's ways are not my ways, and its thoughts not my thoughts.

Companions to God is an oxymoron. You can't be a companion to an imaginary persona.

OK, we have obviously reached the end of mutual understanding on free will, so on to your next point.

Well of course not. Nuclear contamination is among the least of our threats. Not that we shouldn't be concerned with any kind of contamination but It's odd to me that you are so concerned about nuclear. Fukushima and Chernobyl are the worst cases of it. Please Google it and tell me how their total number of deaths from radiation compares to the deaths caused by the tsunami wave at Fukushima.

The point you are missing about the flood example is that the entire population of earth except for Noah and his family had turned against God. So yes, that situation was far more of threat to God's plan than nuclear contamination.

I wonder if Glenn would consider that interference of his free will.

I had been hoping to make the point that God's purpose can not fail, despite efforts of any adversary. I believe it follows from that assertion that our current state of affairs, despite its hardships, is not permanent.

Well, then, would you care to elaborate on what you consider to believe to be the grand scheme of things?

I've already stated that I've never claimed such a thing. But I see that you believe it is expedient to the saving of your face to pretend that you don't remember that I've stated over and over that I'm not talking about free will as it pertains to the interactions between humans.

Also, I wonder if you will ever stop pretending that you don't understand that the flood, the parting of the Red sea, and other such things were an interference of the free will of the humans who died. You are even the one who made the claim that the assurance that God will not interfere in our choices is essential to our quality of free will. Maintaining your position that the god did not violate the free will principle is absolute proof that you've not only deified a book, but that you would sacrifice the integrity of your brain in the interest of keeping the book on the pedestal you've placed it on.

You asked Cicerone how the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki fit into the grand scheme of things. I answered that they fit in without any interference from the god. As far as what I believe the grand scheme is, I am not the one who believes that the god has a grand scheme objective.

Why would the god give humans free will as a means to piss it off. Free will that is granted by a god is not free if the granter kills those who use it for their own purposes; and isn't that what free will is all about?

The god appears to one who solves its problems by killing the object of its wrath. And despite its violent actions, we still have all of the base, disgusting activities going on today. I wonder what the god thinks of recent wars in which hundreds of thousands of innocent people were murdered, and all based on known lies.

I didn't ask you what God's grand scheme was, I was wondering what your opinion was.

No.
No wonder you don't get it.

I'm sure he isn't happy about it but since it does not threaten the very survival of his plan, he allows free will to prevail. Since free will seems to be your number one priority, that should at least make you happy about it.

Humans make many mistakes, and those in leadership have the power to make errors that kills millions. This history will continue.