Hannibal and The Punic Wars

He was a long march from Rome.

Rome was a VERY formidable target for anyone. (psycholgically)

He had no siege engines.

He still didn't have a decent port through which he could resupply.

Welcome ALV. I not really known for my long answers but I'm sure someone will turn up and embelish.

This is my first post as well, and yes Im a Hannibal fan. But if Hannibal had attacked Rome he probably would have had tons of casualties so I imagine he would have laid seige instead. Either way, if Hannibal somehow sacked Rome, then Rome would have recovered. If Hannibal conquered Rome, and made it part of the Carthaginian empire then maybe Western Civ would not be with us today..

Welcome, meangreen and A Lone Voice, to A2K!

I've always troubles with these "what happened if and when .."-history fictions.

Too many unknown possibilties and unpredictable interrelations, I think.

I am a civil man, and hate wars. However I can say from my experience of history reading that it can be true that "his failure to press Rome after this victory is what led to the eventual defeat of his army."

Hannibal was in no position to press a seige on any city in the Italian penninsula, hence Fabius Maximus' policy of avoiding open battle and withdrawing the population and troops of any area in which Hannibal operated into the cities. Adrian's short answer is as good as any long post on the subject.

Carthage was never more than a great city surrounded by a district in the countryside which supplied some of its means. The Roman Republic, however, could reasonably rely at that time on the loyalties of almost all of the Italo-Tuscan peoples of the Italian penninsula. Carthage employed mercenaries, having insufficient native population to futher its wars. Roman triumph was inevitable. I agree with Walter about the "uselessness" of "what if" history. I usually don't respond to this type of thread, and likely won't in the future.

Adrian has the low-down skinny on this one.

Elephants would be extinct.

Most of the italian allies of Rome remained, contrary to Hannibals expectations, loyal to Rome. Since he couldn't easily bring provisions and the like in through a port, (the Romans controlled the seas) he had to rely on his supplies coming through Spain. He couldn't mount a direct attack against Rome without the necessary siege engines.
Once the Romans managed to beat the Carthaginians in Spain, provisions became sparse. He had to start living from the land, which isn't a good way to make allies.

What would happen if? Actually, I don;t think very much. Perhaps with a strong mercantile state on the african continent as an adversary, Rome may had more problems holding on to Egypt, a great source of income for them.

I agree with Setanta, the "what if" questions are good material for fantasy novels, but have little bearing on where we are today.

Hannibal, though a grwat commander, may have had the means to subdue Rome for a shorter period of time, but lacked the manpower and the stamina to effectively occupy the Roman lands. sooner rather than later Rome would have rebelled and the tide would have turned against carthage.

Carthage was a mercantile power, much like the Netherlands were. These nations can raise incidental power, but protracted wars drain their resolve and their resources and lead to their eventual demise as great powers.

The Netherlands/Carthage analogy is excellent, Paaskynen, good work.

You know, btw, what Hannibal said to his troops, when crossing the Alps?

"All the footsore lame ducks and otherwise disabled to the left."

Since that time, history knows the Bavarians.

Hmm... There is truth in what you say, Paaskynen. By the way, does this mean Easter Bunny in finnish?

I'm from the Netherlands, and I'm reasonably well acquainted with it's history. We were indeed a mercantile nation, it wasn't possible for us to field great armies.
I will however, point out that we DID win the war of independence against Spain, in our country known as the 80 year war. Spain was a major power in those days (1568-1648 I believe, but I have a bad memory concerning dates). Nevertheless, we did win our independence. Of course, that may have gone quite differently had not the entirety of Europe been involved in protracted wars in the first half of the seventeenth century.

We were talking about Carthage, however.
Hannibal had great potential as a leader, and was an extremely good tactician and strategist. If he had conquered Rome, he may WELL have been able to sway more of it's former allies. After all, king Phillip of Macedonia became his ally during the second punic war, among several southern italian city states, or so I was led to believe.
If he had been able to create strong partnerships with former Roman allies(Rome after all had done the same thing before), he may well have kept a hold on Rome.
Of course, he could also have elected to raze the city if he felt he couldn't hold on to it. That would have serious consequences for the morale of the legions! I would only like to point out that there are alternatives to your suggestion, Paaskynen.

Naj.

Hmm... So the bavarians came along with Hannibal right? That would be intersting, the Roman empre under the control of the Bavarians... Conspiracy theorists would have a field day with that particular event .

Ask me, just ask me, naj! :wink:

bavarians announce bounty of a hectoliter of spatenbrau for the head of walter. hbg

hbg meaning both hamburger and His Bavarian Greatness... of course ;-)

Oh and btw...
Go right ahead Walter ;-) Make my day

najmelliw : right you are ; having been born in the free and hanseatic city of hamburg ( to give it its proper name !), but having also spent some time in bavaria as a teenager i'll have to try and make sure no defamation of either will take place (not an easy job with walter around, i can assure you). hbg ... i guess what the "hamburgers" and the bavarians unites is their love of beer ...

I like the idea of elephants drowned in bavarian cream. A little frosting, maybe a chocolate drizzle, dessert for everyone!

elephant joke (german/hamburg style) : a sandwichshop in hamburg had a sign : " all kinds of sandwiches; ask for it, we got it !" . a fellow walked in and referring to the sign asked : " i really can have any sandwich i want ? "; "yes", he was assured, "you can have any sandwich you want". so he asked for an elephant sandwich. a fellow went to the back of the shop and emerged a few minutes later, sadly shaking his head. "what's the problem , no elephant ? ", the customer asked. "oh yes, we do have an elephant " , was the reply, "but the cook refuses to slice up an elephant for just one sandwich ". ... kind of cruel towards elephants, i now think, but that's how our juvenile minds worked "in the good old days" . hbg