3
   

Internalism

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2015 04:54 pm
@Tuna,
Justification, Tuna? By "reasoning" it out? I don't think so! Hume done said it best, I figure:

Quote:
“Reason is, and ought only to be, the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office than to serve and obey them.” (Davey Hume)


Passion is the justification, I figure.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Nov, 2015 07:05 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Passion is the justification, I figure.
For what?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2015 01:08 am
@Tuna,
Quote:
For what?


For enslaving reason and forcing it to do it's bidding when trying to define "justification," I guess.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2015 08:31 am
@layman,
Quote:
For enslaving reason and forcing it to do it's bidding when trying to define "justification," I guess.

You can always tune-in to the passionate base of stuff like that by noticing what's at stake. Since internalism of various kinds is related to philosophy of mind, I'd say the passion on the scene has to do with competing conceptions of reality.

On one extreme, the universe and all its inhabitants are essentially dead. Some little blobs of dead matter don't seem to realize they're dead. But that's just because they're incredibly arrogant.

On the other extreme, the universe is something like a vast leviathan humming Bach's Air on the G String. Some of the debris on its scales is upset because it wanted to live forever.

Sorry. What were we talking about?

Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Nov, 2015 08:54 am
It's helpful to have the details straight about Knowledge Internalism, because the same pattern emerges with the meat and potatoes of the issue: Justification Internalism/Externalism.

There were questions earlier in the thread about whether we're really talking about what stands as justification for belief. For instance, as Olivier5 asked: are we concerned with whether direct observation is the primary justifier?

In the debate about Justification Internalism/Externalism, everyone starts with accepting that in some cases direct observation is a justifier. But this quickly falls away in importance for the same reason Actual Access Knowledge Internalism was considered and then rejected (even by internalists) as an adequate approach.

The focus comes back around to accessibility. Accessing a justifier means being aware of how a belief was produced. It could be experiences, other beliefs, testimony, facts surrounding the appearance of a belief, etc.

0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2015 07:20 am
Justification Externalists deny that in all cases it's possible to access some justifier for belief in P, but they maintain that this does not mean that belief in P is unjustified.

For instance, imagine a football team that has a chance to score after the two-minute warning. Sometimes humans react instinctively. Beliefs are not always formed in such a way that justifiers are accessible.

Next: a position related to Justification Externalism: Reliabilism.

Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2015 01:14 pm
I think I've bitten off as much I as I can chew for now. This stream flows into this pond:

fresco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2015 02:52 pm
@Tuna,
What a pity ! I was waiting for you to define 'knowledge'. Smile

(can't seem get that clip to work)
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2015 04:42 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
(can't seem get that clip to work)

Too bad. The ending gets kind of Nietzschesque.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2015 05:04 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
Next: a position related to Justification Externalism: Reliabilism


Now you're talking business, sho nuff. As I said in another thread reliabilism is the ticket! Lemme see if I can find what I posted there, and I'll plaster it here, eh, Tuna? OK, here it is:

Quote:
Exactly, Ollie. As Dennet joked: We KNOW it works it practice. What we're trying to figure out is if it works in theory.

Theorize on, theorists. Me, I'm goin with the reliabilist solution to all them angel on pinhead "debates."

Quote:
On such a reliabilist view, the justification of a perceptual belief depends only on the reliability of the perceptual process that produces it, that is, on the fact (assuming that it is a fact) that this process leads to a suitably high proportion of true beliefs. (Note that it is not required that the believer or anyone else know that the process is reliable or have any sort of cognitive access to its reliability — all that is required is that it is in fact reliable).

The justification of such a belief thus requires no appeal to sensory experience at all, thus effectively short-circuiting the issue that divides representationalism and phenomenalism. Such reliabilist views might in a way be viewed as versions of direct realism, but it is less misleading to simply regard them as rejecting the issue which all three of the more traditional theories attempt to respond to: the issue of how sensory experience provides a reason for thinking that perceptual beliefs are true. Reliabilism thus offers a seemingly straightforward and unproblematic account of how perceptual beliefs about physical objects and the physical world are, in a specified sense, justified.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/perception-episprob/


It seems I mighta had another post that elaborated on the brilliance of reliabilism, eh? Lemme look...
layman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2015 05:15 pm
@layman,
Yeah, here it is. That saved my ass a lotta time re-typin, eh?

Quote:
I see an apple. [how can I know it's really an apple? How can I know it even exists? How do you define "apple?" Could it be true that.....]

I think to myself: "Imma grab that sukka and chomp it down.". [Who is "I", here? Who is "myself" How can a "mind" have any effect on material objects. Who's doing the "thinking" here? How....]

I get my mitts on it and hog it right down. Tasted good! [how do you KNOW you did that? Where does "taste" reside, exactly? What if...]

That **** in brackets can kiss my black ass. Like I done said: Tasted good. Imma go find me another one.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2015 05:32 pm
@layman,
Cool
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 26 Nov, 2015 08:53 pm
@Tuna,
Quote:
You can always tune-in to the passionate base of stuff like that by noticing what's at stake. Since internalism of various kinds is related to philosophy of mind, I'd say the passion on the scene has to do with competing conceptions of reality.

On one extreme, the universe and all its inhabitants are essentially dead. Some little blobs of dead matter don't seem to realize they're dead. But that's just because they're incredibly arrogant.

On the other extreme, the universe is something like a vast leviathan humming Bach's Air on the G String. Some of the debris on its scales is upset because it wanted to live forever
.

Very astute, Tuna. "I'd say the passion on the scene has to do with competing conceptions of reality." And great passion also seems to be involved when one's cherished fundamental ontology is at stake, eh? Equally so for the "scientist" who adheres to metaphysical naturalism (of which atheists are a subset) and the devout who insist that God exists.

The façade of being "objective and reasonable" quickly crumbles (if it was ever erected in the first place) when you start questioning another's fundamental beliefs in which they have unshakable faith. It aint really about dispassionate "philosophy of mind," free will, empiricism, cause and effect or whatever other phrasings are used to make the debate sound or seem "intellectual" in character.
0 Replies
 
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 10:23 am
This is me trying to get a handle on knowledge internalism and externalism.

To review the terminology, a Knowledge Internalist says that I know P IFF I can, on reflection, become aware of at least some portion of the justification for P. So the internalist demands that the starting point for knowledge is access to awareness. There's some intuitive appeal here. I reject the notion that trees know they should grow toward the light. But if I learned that trees actually do have minds and can be aware of mental content, then I would be open to the possibility that they do have knowledge.

Where internalism flounders is in bridging the Cartesian Gorge between mind and world. Construction of that bridge tends to breaks down in the justification department. I can be right in asserting P, but with unsound justification. The underlying question being: what is the relationship between what I think and the way the world is?

Knowledge Externalism isn't a positive thesis. It's just a rejection of internalism. It says that I can know P without access to any portion of the justification for P. So does the externalist say trees know they should grow toward the light?

Not exactly. The starting point for externalism is not the somewhat solipsistic position of the internalist. Instead, it starts with recognizing that we find ourselves in a world with sentient beings. We're going to examine the ways these beings interact with the world and locate knowledge in activities that demonstrate some reliability.

Oddly enough, it appears that the world the externalist speaks of is fictional or at least hypothetical. The externalist philosopher is like a novelist writing in third person. I think the externalist trail leads straight back to internalism, but with a twist: apriori knowledge.


layman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 04:19 pm
@Tuna,
How do you know that you know?

How do you know that you know that you know?

How do you know that you know that you know that you know?

That **** aint got no end.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Dec, 2015 04:23 pm
@layman,
I can remember that candyass teacher of mine asking:

What IS it with you, Layboy? Ignorance, or apathy?

I sez: I don't know and I don't care, eh?
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 01:36 am
@Tuna,
Nice Kantian conclusion !
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 02:16 am
@Tuna,
Have you come across Merleau-Ponty by the way ?
He makes an interesting case for rejecting an 'internal-external' dichotomy based on Heidegger's 'being', Gestaltism, and empirical evidence from brain damage.
Tuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 09:55 am
@fresco,
Yea. I read parts of Phenomenology of Perception. He also made some radio speeches that can be read sort of like essays. They're pretty good. I'm an amateur artist, so I connected with his take on things.

Internalism/Externalism relates to the idea of an internal/external dichotomy. One place it comes up is in addressing equivocation that we might see in people who reject the Cartesian mind/body split. I've been thinking about it more as it relates to scrutability. I'm reading David Chalmers' book Constructing the World.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Dec, 2015 11:16 am
@Tuna,
Quote:
...the idea of an internal/external dichotomy. One place it comes up is in addressing equivocation that we might see in people who reject the Cartesian mind/body split.


Here's an excerpt from wiki pertaining to philosophical realism (which Fresky always calls "naïve realism" because he thinks it makes his solipsism sound "sophisticated):"
Quote:
Contemporary philosophical realism is the belief that some aspect of our reality is ontologically independent of our conceptual schemes, perceptions, linguistic practices, beliefs, etc. Realism may be spoken of with respect to other minds, the past, the future, universals, mathematical entities (such as natural numbers), moral categories, the material world, and thought. Realism can also be promoted in an unqualified sense, in which case it asserts the mind-independent existence of a visible world, as opposed to skepticism and solipsism. Philosophers who profess realism state that truth consists in the mind's correspondence to reality. Realists tend to believe that whatever we believe now is only an approximation of reality ...


Is that a "dichotomy?"
 

 
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