The coming Oz election thread ...

Here's a quick story involving the a typical American voter.

I was sitting at the counter in the local restaurant the other day and the guy to my immediate left, a local redneck, happened to glance over at my newpaper and see a picture of John Kerry.

"John Kerry is an idiot!" he said in a typically loud redneck voice, "he says he defended our country. What a bunch of shit!"

"Well, he did serve in Vietnam", I said.

"So what?" Vietnam wasn't even a war. It was a police action."

"Well, regardless of how you want to label Vietnam, the fact remains, he was there and would have died serving in the military of this country. By the way, what do you consider the current situation in Iraq?"

"That's a war! They attacked us!"

"Who attacked us?"

"Sadaam Hussein."

"Sadaam Hussein never attacked us!"

"Well, he's an Arab."

True story. I got up at that point, paid my bill, and left the restaurant before me meal arrived.

Actually, I shouldn't say "typical American voter"

Change that to "typical Bush voter"

Oh boy. We got damn rednecks too.

Diatribe.

Though - mebbe when they stopped being cross, they thought a bit?

Thing is, they didn't seem to get what I meant. I suppose they weren't thinking, as I was, of the full spectrum of historical reality behind universal suffrage, and were only thinking of Oz?

Actually, when I was a weelowan, only property owners got to vote for the upper house......

Scary, Gus, scary. Like scene from Easy Rider.

I KNEW they'd attack abortion!!!!

This is soooo American!!

Church demands abortion inquiry
November 1, 2004 - 5:59PM

Health ministers should hold an inquiry into the abortion industry, the Catholic Church said today after two federal MPs raised concerns about an "abortion epidemic" in Australia.

Parliamentary secretary for health Christopher Pyne today called for a ban on terminations performed after 12 weeks unless there were exceptional circumstances.

Health Minister Tony Abbott said he understood his colleague's concerns, considering a quarter of all pregnancies in Australia ended with abortion.

But Mr Abbott said it was up to state governments to decide if women should be allowed to have abortions after 21 weeks.

"I can certainly understand my friend and colleague's concerns and I think a lot of people in the community have similar concerns," Mr Abbott told ABC radio.

"He certainly pointed out the oddity of desperately trying to save pre-natal life in one part of the hospital and at the same time taking pre-natal life in another part of the hospital.

"I think that's a perfectly reasonable contradiction for Chris to point out."

Catholic Health Australia chief executive Francis Sullivan called for the issue to be put on the agenda for the next health ministers' summit.

"The country's health ministers should act with a sense of responsibility to uphold the dignity of every life and place on their agenda the establishment of an inquiry into the abortion industry in Australia," Mr Sullivan said.

Mr Abbott said even pro-choice advocates were concerned about the abortion rate, with 25 per cent of all pregnancies ending in terminations in Australia.

But he said the government had no plans to change existing policy about the public funding of terminations.

"We have something like 100,000 abortions a year, 25 per cent of all pregnancies end in abortion and even the most determined pro-choice advocates these days seem to be rightly concerned at the way that the abortion epidemic has developed," he said.

"But certainly the government has no plans to change existing policy at this time."

Australian Federation of Right to Life Associations spokeswoman Kath Woolf said Medicare funding for late-term abortions needed to be stopped.

"But it is not enough to just stop funding," Ms Woolf said.

"The federal government should work to create a community which better supports women and their children."

Opposition leader Mark Latham today said the issue of abortion was one for women and their medical advisers.

"I think we need to accept the right of women to make the choice and we need to respect the medical advice they receive from their doctors," Mr Latham told reporters.

"I would much rather respect women and doctors and medical advice than to go on the advice of a politician like Christopher Pyne.

"So I don't think it is an area where politicians know exactly every circumstance and you can mandate the approach he is suggesting."

Women's Electoral Lobby spokeswoman Eva Cox said the fact the issue had been raised said more about Mr Abbott, a staunch Catholic, and the rise of the Christian right in Australia than anything else.

"The trouble with Abbott is he thinks he can shove his particular moral viewpoint down the throats of everyone else," Ms Cox said.

"He is a fundamentalist, of sorts, who holds a minority view."

Medicare funds around 75,000 abortions a year, 95 per cent of which are performed in the first trimester of pregnancy.

Prime Minister John Howard has previously said the government has no plans to change policy on the Medicare rebate and any views expressed by MPs on the issue were personal.

Little turd, Abbot: Anyone else hear him on AM???

MP calls for ban on late abortions
By Michelle Grattan
Canberra
November 1, 2004

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Latham enters abortion row
Abortion: Your Say
A coalition MP wants a ban on late terminations, adding fuel to the abortion debate.

"I think it's wrong that the law isn't keeping pace with modern technology," the new federal parliamentary secretary for health, Christopher Pyne, said yesterday.

"In one section of the hospital, premature babies are being kept alive at 23 weeks, and in another section pregnancies are being terminated at 24 weeks. The law and technology should be brought into sync."

Mr Pyne was dubious about abortions being done beyond 12 weeks, apart from exceptional circumstances - "and they shouldn't be carried out at all beyond 21 weeks".

Australia's level of 100,000 abortions a year should be tackled - by bringing forward the cut-off time for terminations and by encouraging women to choose other options, he said.

Mr Pyne told The Age women should not be denied the right to an abortion, but it should be a last option - something "women choose not to have, and can't have too late".

Abortion law is a state matter. In Victoria they can be conducted after 28 weeks only if the mother's health is at risk. The Commonwealth is involved in abortion through Medicare rebates. The abortion debate is gathering pace. Special Minister of State Eric Abetz has supported removing Medicare funding for most abortions. Incoming Queensland National senator-elect Barnaby Joyce has said funding should stop, while Health Minister Tony Abbott has intensified his campaign to mobilise the Catholic Church as he seeks to build pressure on the Medicare rebate issue.

The debate has the potential to be divisive among Coalition members. MPs opposed to the anti-abortion push include minister Joe Hockey and NSW Liberal Senator Marise Payne. Liberal women were angered by Mr Abbott's comments before the election, but held their tongues then.

Abbott spoke of being haunted by the "missing millions of Australians".Prime Minister John Howard has said there is no Government move to change policy on the rebate, and any views expressed are personal. There are 75,000 Medicare-funded abortions a year.

Addressing a Catholic conference attended by Cardinal George Pell and other church dignitaries last week, Mr Abbott said he wanted to invite leaders of the church, to consider its role in tackling the tragedy of abortion in Australia today.

"More than a quarter of all pregnancies in Australia end in abortion. We will be a better country, we will be a better people and, frankly, we will have better governments if the church speaks its mind clearly and unambiguously on this" as well as on other "great moral truths", Mr Abbott said.

If senior Catholics were as morally indignant about the "unambiguous moral tragedy" of abortion as about the less clear-cut question of immigration detention, "then there would be change, and change we should have".

Mr Abbott stressed that the last thing anyone would want to do is "criminalise people who are party to abortion".

He said there would be far fewer abortions if premature sexual activity was discouraged, adoption was encouraged as an alternative to abortion and motherhood was celebrated as much as workplace success.

Mr Abbott will not say that the Medicare rebate should not be available for most abortions but his aim is to generate pressure for such a move. He spoke of being haunted by the "missing millions of Australians". He thought everyone should do what they could to tackle the issue.

Latham: (The dead man walking)



Latham enters abortion row
November 1, 2004 - 9:42AM

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MP calls for ban on late abortions
Abortion: Your Say
Politicians should not dictate whether women can terminate late-term pregnancies, Opposition leader Mark Latham said today.

Health Minister Tony Abbott and his Parliamentary Secretary for Health, Christopher Pyne, have raised concerns about the number of abortions in Australia.

Mr Abbott has supported comments by Mr Pyne, who has called for a ban on late-term pregnancy terminations.

The newly-appointed federal parliamentary secretary for health has also said abortions should never be carried out after 21 weeks.

Mr Latham today said the choice about whether to terminate a pregnancy was up to the woman and her doctor.

He said politicians could not know every circumstance behind the decision.

"You've got to respect the right of women to make a choice and you've got to respect the fact that they get expert medical advice from their doctors," Mr Latham told reporters in Sydney.

"It's not for politicians to get in the middle of doctors' consultation rooms in circumstances where people have got to make a judgement about their own future.

"I would much rather respect women and doctors and medical advice then go on the advice of a politician like Christopher Pyne."

Mr Latham said the government had not made a case for changing the rules that govern Medicare funding for terminations. "Until they make the case then you wouldn't want to change the arrangements," he said.

Earlier, Mr Abbott told ABC radio he backed Mr Pyne's concerns about late-term abortions, but said there were no plans to change government policy on terminations.

Mr Pyne told The Age hospitals were on the one hand battling to keep premature babies born at 23 weeks alive as well as carrying out abortions 24-week-old foetuses.

Mr Abbott said he shared the concerns many people had about the 100,000 abortions carried out each year in Australia.

"I can certainly understand my friend and colleague's concerns and a I think a lot of people in the community have similar concerns," Mr Abbott told ABC radio.

"He certainly pointed out the oddity of desperately trying to save pre-natal life in one part of the hospital and at the same time taking pre-natal life in another part of the hospital.

"I think that's a perfectly reasonable contradiction for Chris to point out.

"But certainly the government has no plans to change existing policy at this time."

Asked when he personally thought it was too late for a woman to have an abortion, Mr Abbott said: "I don't much like abortion full stop.

"But obviously abortions at a point in the pregnancy when the child to be might otherwise be viable, obviously raise even more serious ethical issues than those much earlier in pregnancy."

Mr Abbott refused to say whether he had discussed changing the government's policy on abortion with Prime Minister John Howard or if his own department was carrying out any work on a such a policy change.

While state governments set their own laws about when abortions can be carried out, the Commonwealth funds terminations through the Medicare system.

This'll get better - what's next? No minimum wage? Working three jobs to live, like the US:

Aussies among world's top workers
Natasha Bita and Amanda Hodge
November 01, 2004
AUSTRALIA is a land of workaholics, ranking with the US and rivalling the Japanese as the world's hardest workers.

In its first report on excessive working hours in industrialised countries, the International Labour Organisation says one in five employees in Australia, New Zealand and the US works at least 50 hours a week.

Australian employees work twice as hard as Europeans, with just a 10th of European workers putting in such long working hours. Only in Japan, where 28.1 per cent of employees work 49 hours or more a week and New Zealand 21.3 per cent, do people work longer.

The report has come as little surprise to the ACTU, which says that while Australians do not mind hard work, they are struggling to maintain a balance between family life and growing work demands.

National secretary Greg Combet said that in following the US model of a deregulated labour market the federal Government had stripped unions of the right to collectively bargain and handed greater powers to employers.









Australia now boasted an "army of low-paid workers, others working exceptionally long hours, people under more pressure and no capacity to balance work and family life". "That's John Howard's nirvana," Mr Combet said yesterday. ACTU surveys showed many workers felt their jobs would be at risk if they did not work longer hours.

In Germany, France, Spain and Italy, less than 6 per cent of workers put in a 50-hour working week. The global comparison does not include the self-employed or farm workers, who tend to work longer hours than employees.

The ILO report's editor and senior researcher, Jon Messenger, said yesterday the share of employees working "excessively long hours" had jumped from 15 to 20 per cent in Australia and the US between 1987 and 2000.

The shift towards a 10-hour working day coincided with a jump in part-time jobs.

By 2000, a quarter of Australian employees, 13 per cent of Japanese and 17 per cent of Americans were working fewer than 30 hours a week.

Mr Messenger said the collapse of the standard 38-hour week coincided with the Howard Government's deregulation of industrial relations.

"This move is quite marked in Australia," he said.

"In 1987 it was very clear that 40 hours was the standard. Now you've seen a move towards more workers working excessive hours ? 50 plus ? and more working part-time ? less than 20 hours a week.

"Between 1987 and 2000, what you saw was a substantial deregulation of the labour market in Australia, particularly in the regulation of working time away from industry awards and more and more focus on enterprise-level collective bargaining and individual agreements on working conditions, including working time."

Mr Messenger also blamed intense competition, partly driven by globalisation, and technology, for the worldwide rise of the workaholic.

"Health ministers should hold an inquiry into the abortion industry, the Catholic Church said today after two federal MPs raised concerns about an "abortion epidemic" in Australia. "

I'm getting utterly sick & tired of every ultra-conservative organization in the country suddenly declaring that it's most regressive policy is a must do!
It's getting bloody tedious!

Barricades.

At page 111, how about we move to a POST ELECTION thread?:

The NEXT coming Oz election thread:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37786&highlight=

I think the following transcript relevant to recent comments by Abbott and Pyne.


Wednesdays at 8.30am, repeated at 8.00pm


Opus Dei in Australian politics.
12 May 2004

print


An Australian politician speaks about his connection to Opus Dei, the first Australian Member of Parliament that we’re aware of, to publicly declare his involvement with the conservative Catholic movement, Opus Dei.

Program Transcript

When you visit his office in New South Wales Parliament House, the first thing you notice is the crucifix standing by the phone on his desk. Over his shoulder a picture of the Virgin and Child and a black and white photograph of St Josemaria de Balaguer, founder of the conservative Catholic movement, Opus Dei. There are several books about Islam. And a handsome commendation from the Croatian community on the wall.

He is David Clarke, MLC, Liberal member of the Upper House of the New South Wales Parliament for just over a year.

David Clarke has been described as the convenor of a rapidly-expanding new Christian conservative wing of the New South Wales Liberal party. The President of the New South Wales Young Liberals works on his staff, and they were both present at a meeting of the Bankstown branch of the Young Liberals one night last week where the police had to be called, and someone was allegedly ‘pistol shipped’.

It also turns out that David Clarke has a personal connection with the Opus Dei-run college at New South Wales University, which recently became a major shareholder in the Randwick-Coogee branch of the Young Liberals. Well, students to give Warrane College as their address make up 21 of the 88 members.

Is the Liberal party too progressive for David Clarke’s liking?

David Clarke: The Liberal party is a broad church. I see the Liberal party as a conservative party and I think that Federally, the Liberal party is moving along in a very good way indeed. I think that John Howard articulates the values and views of the overwhelming majority of people in this nation.

Stephen Crittenden: I used to think that there were a whole bunch of social issues, like gay rights, and drugs that would simply evaporate in a few years time when a younger generation came to occupy positions of political power. There were signs a few years back that the Young Liberals were beginning to express progressive views about gay rights, for example, now I’m not so sure. The truth is, isn’t it, that there are much more conservative people in any generation and that you’re determined in the case of the Liberal party, to find them and help them get into Parliament.

David Clarke: Well I certainly am wanting to do that, yes, I make no bones about that. It is true the Young Liberal movement is very, very conservative in its outlook. It has taken a very strong stand on the age of consent; it believes the age of consent should be 18.

Stephen Crittenden: My point is, it wasn’t just a few years ago, as conservative as it suddenly is now.

David Clarke: No, it has been moving to a more conservative stand, and I think that’s a very good thing. But I think that there is a spiritual upsurge in our nation as a whole. I think people are returning to religious and spiritual values for a whole variety of reasons.

Stephen Crittenden: Isn’t it true that in the case of the Young Liberals, there have been reports recently that the Randwick-Coogee branch has effectively been stacked by a bunch of new members from the Opus Dei college at New South Wales University? Last week there was a brawl out at Bankstown where the police had to be called, where a similar stack seemed to be in progress. Aren’t those cases linked? And is that link your office?

David Clarke: Well first of all, look, as far as Young Liberal branches are concerned, when you have a Development Vice President of the Young Liberal branch seeking new members, he’s going to go out to those areas where his friends are. So if he comes from a particular school and he’s got friends there, it’s natural that he’ll go there. If he’s a university student at Sydney or New South Wales, from one of the colleges, he’s going to go to that area where his friends are; there’s nothing unusual or sinister about that whatsoever. As far as Punchbowl was concerned, most of those people were outsiders who were not members of the Young Liberal movement or the Liberal party, and we don’t want people who are going to cause that sort of trouble.

Stephen Crittenden: They were wanting to sign up too, weren’t they?

David Clarke: Well they were, but I don’t know that they had the views and values that the Liberal party believes in.

Stephen Crittenden: What, they were Muslims?

David Clarke: I think there was a whole range of people there, but I think there were certain extreme elements who were there, who certainly would not be welcomed inside the Liberal party. We welcome people of all backgrounds of goodwill, but they have to adhere to the fundamental core values of our party.

Stephen Crittenden: Are you not at the centre of a highly co-ordinated campaign to bring conservatives, religious conservatives, in fact, into the New South Wales Liberal party, and in fact to drive people of more moderate, progressive views, out of office, through preselections and so on?

David Clarke: I’m not seeking to drive anybody out through preselections, but I do believe it is the responsibility of Christians to involve themselves in public affairs, and the political process, and that’s something that I encourage. I see Australia as a Christian nation in the Western tradition, and I believe we have nothing to be ashamed of. I believe that Christian values are at the foundation of our nation and I encourage Christians of all denominations to join the political party of their choice.

Stephen Crittenden: I’ve been reading your maiden speech, which is on your website, and it’s very interesting. You express great concern about our democratic institutions and our democratic way of life, and you say that shouldn’t be surrendered to international organisations and foreign bodies. What about international organisations and foreign bodies like the Vatican and Opus Dei?

David Clarke: Well look, I’m talking about the handing over of the legal power to govern Australians. That’s a very different thing from people giving their spiritual allegiance to a denomination where the headquarters may be overseas. So I don’t see any conflict there at all; giving allegiance to a denomination is a voluntary thing, whereas handing over power to a political institution overseas is a very different kettle of fish altogether.

Stephen Crittenden: Are you a member of Opus Dei?

David Clarke: I’m a Co-operator of Opus Dei, which means that I assist the work of Opus Dei through prayer, through time, through effort and through finances.

Stephen Crittenden: I don’t think I’ve ever heard an Australian politician make an admission like the one you’ve just made.

David Clarke: Well when you say admission, you know I state it as a fact that I am a Co-operator of Opus Dei. I don’t see it as an admission, I just state it as a fact.

Stephen Crittenden: There’s a view that Opus Dei in the past decade or so has been largely unsuccessful in its attempts to infiltrate the Catholic right wing of the Labor party in New South Wales, that it’s been largely unsuccessful in its attempts to infiltrate the Commonwealth Public Service in Canberra, and that now it’s turning its attention, through you, to the Liberal party.

David Clarke: Well I think that’s a very fanciful idea. I don’t believe that as far as I can see, that Opus Dei is attempting to infiltrate anything. Opus Dei, as I understand it, sees its mission to promote the doctrine of the faith, to do personal apostolate for greater holiness of the laity, and to try and help people achieve sanctification through their daily work.

Stephen Crittenden: I just want to turn back to your maiden speech, if I may. You’re full of praise for Bob Santamaria who you describe as a man of heroic virtue. Now of course, Santamaria attempted to have his secret organisation infiltrate the Australian Labor party in the ‘50s with the backing of one very famous Australian Archbishop, until the Vatican itself intervened. Isn’t the truth that Santamaria demonstrates how this kind of thing can backfire dreadfully, for the church and for the political party involved. He left the Catholic church in Victoria a smoking ruin, and he nearly destroyed the Labor party.

David Clarke: No Stephen, I don’t agree that it demonstrates those things at all. It is true I have a very high admiration for the late Bob Santamaria, and I believe he and those around him played a very effective part in resisting the advance of communism in Australia, particularly in the Trade Unions. And that was a battle that he more or less won. I don’t believe that he left the church in ruins at all, I think that’s very far from the truth.

Stephen Crittenden: David Clarke, MLC.

Well one possible target of the conservative push into the Liberal party in Bankstown is John Ryan, Deputy Leader of the Liberals in the New South Wales Upper House, and Shadow Minister for Community Services.

John Ryan is a committed evangelical Christian. But he’s also supported recent legislation changing the age of consent, and he supports a harm-minimisation approach on drugs.

Stephen Crittenden: John Ryan, welcome to the program. Does Jesus only exist in the right-wing of the Liberal party?

John Ryan: Well Jesus doesn’t exist in any political party. Political parties are earthly creations of people which represent what they see as the best interests for society. I mean Jesus was quite clear when he talked about the Kingdom of God, that the Kingdom of God was not of this world, and as a Member of Parliament, whilst I hope to do good things, I think that the Constitution of Australia and the Constitution of New South Wales are pretty hopeless vehicles by which I can try and create the Kingdom of God. I can no more create the Kingdom of God using politics as a medium, than a doctor can generate a resurrection. Being a Christian is an important part of who I am as a politician, but I don’t seek to fulfil the gospel in any stretch of the imagination, by something as hopeless a vehicle as a political party to do it.

Stephen Crittenden: So how does your Christianity interact with your politics?

John Ryan: I believe the fundamental role of government is to create order in society. That’s essentially what the New Testament understanding of what government’s about. So I need to do things which best create order and justice for people in the community. And sometimes even Jesus said in the gospels when he was explaining to someone, he said, ‘Look, Moses tolerated divorce because you people weren’t capable of living up to the ideals about marriage’. Now the truth is I disagree with divorce, but I wouldn’t for a moment be seeking to repeal laws which make divorce orderly.

Stephen Crittenden: And what about abortion?

John Ryan: Abortion is a particularly tricky one, because it goes to fundamentally what people believe to be the essence of what is human life. And obviously Christians generally have a commitment to protect human life as it is. So on the one hand I’ve got to protect people’s human lives, and on the other hand, there is the need to have an orderly society and I have to say it’s an enormously difficult one. To cut to the chase, I’m not seen to be squibbing the issue. I’ll never vote for a Bill which seeks to make abortion more accessible, but by the same token I understand that living in the State of New South Wales, it’s just going to happen that we’re going to have abortions occur, and to some extent there is a need to make sure that they happen in a, well I hate to use the word ‘orderly’ fashion, but to make sure that where abortion is obtained, that at least it’s done I guess safely, and as limited as it’s possible to make it, otherwise if you have no law regulating it at all, then you could just have an open slather, and that wouldn’t be desirable from a Christian perspective either.

Stephen Crittenden: Is this in some senses, a debate as much about the soul of Christianity as it is a debate about the soul of the Liberal party? You know, it’s just very interesting listening to David Clarke there, he doesn’t seem to have any sense of a left tradition of Christianity.

John Ryan: Well the truth is, it’s not going to be possible to box Christianity, in my view, into a left or a right ethos. There are some things which Jesus did which were fundamentally radical. Jesus on various occasions was telling people to sell all they had and give them to the poor. In his day, his approach to women was a remarkably progressive one, where he treated women as equals and saw them as having a role within the organisation and dispensation of the gospel; they were pretty radical events, so I don’t believe that simply because you’re a Christian, therefore you have to have a conservative view about society.

Stephen Crittenden: Is there any doubt that at the moment the Liberal party in New South Wales is experiencing a fairly co-ordinated campaign to move right-wing conservative Christians into party branches, and indeed to get them preselected?

John Ryan: Well one of my colleagues has said that he welcomes the fact that there’s been an increase in right-wing activity, and he says that it’s a good thing that conservative Christians are having an impact on politics generally. I’m not aware of any specific campaign that I can point to that says that this is an organised level of activity by Christian churches, I personally welcome the fact that Christians want to join the Liberal party and participate. I hope they’re in no way given the misunderstanding that there is only one point of view to many of these questions. Most of the issues about which perhaps the more conservative end of the Liberal party have been pushing as being important issues for the Liberal party to confront, are largely ones which have always been resolved in the Liberal party on the basis of conscience. And I personally think that is the best place for it to occur. The Liberal party is a vehicle for gaining the government and the treasury benches of either New South Wales or Australia. It is not about propagating the gospel. If it did, that means that the people who are propagating the gospel have got to live with both the good and bad of the Liberal party, and the truth is, from the Christian tradition, there have been people in the Liberal party that would not necessarily be purveyors or spreaders of the gospel that in fact the church would be embarrassed about. So in my view -

Stephen Crittenden: You don’t say.

John Ryan: I certainly wouldn’t be seeking to spread the gospel by using the Liberal party. I think as a Christian, I can make an impact on the Liberal party, but it’s a hopeless vehicle by which to further the Kingdom of God or the progress of the gospel.

Stephen Crittenden: If it were true that groups like Opus Dei were seeking to infiltrate the Liberal party, would that mean that it was rocky days ahead internally for the party?

John Ryan: Well if there’s a Christian group like Opus Dei seeking to infiltrate any political body, the first question I would ask is Why are they bothering? I mean the truth is, the main focus of the mission of the Christian gospel is to change people’s hearts. However, if there is an attempt, well obviously I know there are plenty of people in the Liberal party who are not Christians. Gee, I get criticised enough even within the Liberal party for being a Christian, so of course there’ll be rocky days ahead.

Stephen Crittenden: John Ryan, MLC.

Well that’s all this week. Thanks to producers Michaela Perske and Jenny Personage.



back to The Religion Report homepage

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s1135473.htm

Repeat post deleted.

This thread has now officially been put to sleep. For the next instalments of Oz politics, go to:


The NEXT coming Oz election thread!:

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=37786&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0



Goodbye & good riddance 2004 Oz Election! You broke our hearts!