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Possible argument against the existence of mathematical objects? (Platonism)

 
 
Reply Mon 11 May, 2015 05:02 pm
1. That which is non-physical cannot be affected by that which is physical.
1.1 Mathematical objects, if they exist, are non-physical.
2. If all physical things cease to exist, mathematical objects cease to be epistemically true.
2.2 Their truth cannot be applied to their own plane, as space is neccesary for the application of mathematical objects (that which makes one, two, is the space between each).

Therefore, mathematical objects are not non-physical.
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Type: Question • Score: 5 • Views: 5,127 • Replies: 63
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Isaac-A-Russell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2015 05:20 pm
@Isaac-A-Russell,
If you spot any problems; please, let me know.
layman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2015 05:24 pm
@Isaac-A-Russell,
Quote:
Therefore, mathematical objects are not non-physical.


Correctomundo, sho nuff.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2015 05:29 pm
@Isaac-A-Russell,
Quote:
If you spot any problems; please, let me know.


The only "problem" I could imagine would be finding someone who actually believes numbers are "objects" of any kind, physical or non-physical.

Except perhaps in a metaphorical sense, such as "objects" of thought.
Isaac-A-Russell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2015 05:36 pm
@layman,
Read Plato (or most philosophers who believe in the soul).
There is a lot at stake on the existence (or non-existence) of such abstract objects.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2015 05:43 pm
@Isaac-A-Russell,
Quote:
Read Plato (or most philosophers who believe in the soul).


Mind if I call you Bert?

Yeah, I was kidding, actually. Even today, there seem to be many who actually think that math is MORE REAL than anything physical. Your typical physics theorist, for example.
0 Replies
 
Razzleg
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2015 09:31 pm
@Isaac-A-Russell,
What is your response to statistics?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2015 09:56 pm
Quote:
There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics.”
― Benjamin Disraeli

If your experiment needs a statistician, you need a better experiment.”
― Ernest Rutherford

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable.”
― Mark Twain

"I've come loaded with statistics, for I've noticed that a man can't prove anything without statistics."
--Mark Twain
0 Replies
 
north
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2015 04:58 pm
@Isaac-A-Russell,
Isaac-A-Russell wrote:

Quote:
1. That which is non-physical cannot be affected by that which is physical.


True

Quote:
1.1 Mathematical objects, if they exist, are non-physical.


Purely mathematical objects , then true

Quote:
2. If all physical things cease to exist, mathematical objects cease to be epistemically true.


True


Quote:
2.2 Their truth cannot be applied to their own plane, as space is neccesary for the application of mathematical objects (that which makes one, two, is the space between each)
.

Explain further

Quote:

Therefore, mathematical objects are not non-physical.



True
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2015 12:06 am
@Isaac-A-Russell,
You seem to have a concept of "existence" based on "substance ontology". (Aristotle). Later philosophers extended the meaning beyond the limits of "substance". Your "problem" is philosophically a non-starter.
Razzleg
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2015 09:44 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

You seem to have a concept of "existence" based on "substance ontology". (Aristotle). Later philosophers extended the meaning beyond the limits of "substance". Your "problem" is philosophically a non-starter.


i think that's a mis-fire response. Per my reading, the OP doesn't seem to be questioning the "existence" of "mathematical objects". The OP just implies that their existence is dependent on-, or interdependent with-, "physical things". Frankly, the question of "existence" isn't even raised.

The only sentence to which your response might be relevant is the last:

Isaac-A-Russell wrote:

Therefore, mathematical objects are not non-physical.


A double-negative that implies that the OP might not deserve the tired accusation of "realism", with which you so often abuse those that don't use your preferred lingo.

PS: If Aristotles's problems were actually a Φ "non-starter", given how much historical Φ information he provided and took into consideration within his own philosophical thought, we'd have much less philosophy than we do. In my opinion, without Aristotles's authoritative contestation, and Φ historical background, Platonism would be just another religion...
Razzleg
 
  0  
Reply Wed 20 May, 2015 10:41 pm
@Razzleg,
Razzleg wrote:

Platonism would be just another religion...


at best...
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2015 12:28 am
@Razzleg,
Point taken.
When you use the word "thing" I am indeed taking the phenomenological line that all "things" or "objects" are ontologically co-extensive with an observer. (i.e *existence" is relational not absolute) Without the observer there would be no "counting". It was therefore not worth mentioning then that the idea of 'separation in space' was wrong even for realists, with respect to counting properties of an object. not to mention the non-locality issue in physics for 'objects' themselves. In short we can drive a tank through the 'logic' irrespective of phenomenology.

Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2015 11:02 am
@fresco,
It doesn't matter it is co extensive...The relation itself no matter how singular and specific it is a thing. An absolute. What you are saying is like saying a square is not real because it has four sides that interact...observer and observed are all absolute things even if in relation...they all are a colection of absolute phenomena, eventually there is a noum that sustains and funds them all...
fresco
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2015 12:07 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
No. We've been round this before. There is no theoretical limit to nested systems. There are no absolutes unless you are religious. Try researching "systems theory".
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2015 12:25 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

No. We've been round this before. There is no theoretical limit to nested systems. There are no absolutes unless you are religious. Try researching "systems theory".


Are you absolutely sure of that?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2015 12:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Fresco like to pull up the "religious" card when he has no proper answer to offer...he thinks that spinning infinity up changes the outcome of the topic at hand. Its a laugh...he throws away ontology and hopes to keep phenomena...how amateurish is that line of thought eh ?
...it suffices to say that infinity cannot spin alone...enfin c'est la vie...

(he has yet to fully grasp the concept of a loop)
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2015 12:39 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
I woulda thunk he'd be more careful with that "there are no absolutes..." no matter how he ended it.

But...Fresco will be Fresco.


(I imagine he would like to take issue with that!)
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2015 12:50 pm
I suggest that dissenters come back when they have researched "systems theory". As far as I know, only one such theorist, Bernard Scott, advocates a limit to nesting in order to rationalize his theistic agenda.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  0  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2015 12:56 pm
@fresco,
Go one post back and read my answer ten times till you got it, its pretty straight forward...
 

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