Bernie's In

@edgarblythe,

Not voting for the dem candidate in the main election is like voting for Trump or Cruz. I agree with Snood here. Lesser of two evils, etc.

Everybody is a bit worked up now but I trust spirits will cool ultimately.

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For todays Iowa caucus:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CaFFCD6WcAADSUr.jpg

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@RABEL222,

RABEL222 wrote:

As i hav e already pointed out even if Bernie is elected president he will be able to get absolutely nothing through a republican congress. The few things Obama was able to get done were done before a wholy republiucan congress came to power. You all live in la la land, not in the real world.

Presumably, then, you think that Clinton differs from Sanders in this regard. And maybe you're right -maybe a President Clinton would be more successful in getting her agenda through a Republican congress than a President Sanders would. But then, given the unwillingness of the congressional GOP caucus to compromise, that just means that Clinton's policies are closer to the GOP's than Sanders's policies are. And on that point, I wholeheartedly agree.

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Polls Point to Victories for Trump and Clinton in Iowa
BY JOHN CASSIDY - The New Yorker

If the opinion polls are right, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton will be celebrating victories in the Iowa caucuses, on Monday night. All of the voter surveys carried out in the past week have shown them in the lead. Of course, the polls could be wrong. Iowa is a notoriously tough place to poll, and much depends on how many new voters Trump and Bernie Sanders can get to the caucuses. But, the day before the vote, Trump and Clinton are the favorites to come out on top.

On Saturday evening, Des Moines Register/Bloomberg Politics released the final iteration, for this cycle, of the Iowa Poll, which is widely regarded as the best in the state. On the Republican side, it showed Trump leading Ted Cruz by five percentage points, twenty-eight per cent to twenty-three per cent, with Marco Rubio in third place, at fifteen per cent. On the Democratic side, the poll showed Clinton leading Sanders by three percentage points: forty-five per cent to forty-two per cent. [...]

http://www.newyorker.com/news/john-cassidy/cassidys-count-polls-point-to-victories-for-trump-and-clinton-in-iowa

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@Olivier5,

That is a big club they wield to bash people into voting for somebody no better than the Republicans. Fortunately, I go into the polling booth alone.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Not voting for the dem candidate in the main election is like voting for Trump or Cruz.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, if Clinton is the Democratic nominee and she loses in the general election, it will be her own damn fault. Blaming the voters for a Clinton defeat would be like blaming the bystanders for a train wreck.

That being said, you need to remember that the US doesn't hold one presidential election on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November in years divisible by four - it holds 51 separate presidential elections, and most of those elections aren't close. There are only about a half dozen states where elections might be decided by a small percentage swing in votes. As for the rest of us, our votes are largely symbolic.

In Illinois, for example, Obama beat Romney in the 2012 election by around 900,000 votes. Romney never campaigned in Illinois during the general election campaign because there was no chance that he would win, and he was right. I expect the results in 2016 will be similar - Illinois is a deep-blue state. My vote for the Green Party candidate in 2012, therefore, wasn't a vote for Romney - it's not like my vote was going to tip the scales or anything. Instead, it was a protest against the timid, lukewarm liberalism of the Obama administration. And since my vote was going to be symbolic no matter how I voted, I chose to make the most of that symbolism. I expect that others who are in the ABC ("anybody but Clinton") camp think likewise.

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@edgarblythe,

Quote:

That is a big club they wield to bash people into voting for somebody no better than the Republicans.

Clinton is no better than your average good old days republican, e.g. Nixon, but that is still far better than Trump or Cruz. Those guys scare the **** out of me. Gime a realist republican politician like Hillary anytime over an extreme right zealot like Cruz.

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@joefromchicago,

Point well taken that not every state is up for grabs, so you could afford not to vote for Clinton if you live in a non-tipping state. But if you live in one state where the election could be close, and you think that Clinton is unworthy of your vote, ask yourself if you really want to be presided over by the Donald, other than just to see how far he can screw things up...

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Point well taken that not every state is up for grabs, so you could afford not to vote for Clinton if you live in a non-tipping state. But if you live in one state where the election could be close, and you think that Clinton is unworthy of your vote, ask yourself if you really want to be presided over by the Donald, other than just to see how far he can screw things up...

America somehow managed to survive eight years of George W. Bush. If the US electorate decided, in an amnesiatic fit, to elect Donald Trump as president, we'll somehow manage to survive that too. Frankly, from the country's perspective, Trump is probably the best Republican candidate. Of course, saying that someone is the best Republican presidential candidate is like saying someone is the tallest midget in the circus, but it's something.

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@joefromchicago,

Bush was an idiot, Trump is a con artist. He's more dangerous, if only for your wallet... Also look at how many militias and white supremacists support him. Imagine those guys empowered by a Trump presidency. You don't want the likes of the Malheur refuge crew to take over the country, do you?

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You don't want the likes of the Malheur refuge crew to take over the country, do you?

No, but then I don't want the likes of Hillary Clinton taking over the country either. You seem to think it's an either/or proposition. Not for me it isn't.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

America somehow managed to survive eight years of George W. Bush.

A couple of the Supreme Court seats are bound to come open soon. So while we might manage to survive Trump (I give leave to doubt it) I don't want the court packed with judges Trump and republicans consider suitable Supreme Court Justices, the highest court in the land. Bottom line.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

No, but then I don't want the likes of Hillary Clinton taking over the country either. You seem to think it's an either/or proposition. Not for me it isn't.

I am a Bernie fan but IF Clinton wins the nomination, it will be either her or the tea baggers. Pick your poison wisely.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

Quote:
America somehow managed to survive eight years of George W. Bush.

A couple of the Supreme Court seats are bound to come open soon. So while we might manage to survive Trump (I give leave to doubt it) I don't want the court packed with judges Trump and republicans consider suitable Supreme Court Justices, the highest court in the land. Bottom line.

America has also somehow managed nearly 30 years of Antonin Scalia.

Frankly, I think Trump would make better judicial appointments than someone like Ted Cruz or even Jeb! Bush, primarily because he isn't tied into the GOP's think-tank/foundation/industrial complex. And keep in mind that the senate still would need to confirm any appointments - although that might be putting too much faith in the spinally deficient Democratic caucus.

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@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Pick your poison wisely.

I'll be the one not choosing poison.

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@joefromchicago,

So you think we have survived Scalia? Hello, citizens united ring a bell? Stripping away the voting rights act? If we have survived it is only because there are some liberals on the courts to hold them back, and a time or two Roberts couldn't bring himself to flout the constitution. Trump has called for all the relatives of terrorist to be killed along side with the terrorist, he has said no Muslims should be allowed to enter the US. Those are just a few of gems out of his mouth. Imagine a whole court of Scalia's and you can our see country being set back before the civil rights act and the right to choose and so forth.

You say you can't vote for some who voted for the Iraq war which eliminates an awful lot of democrats in congress. Imagine Trump being in charge of the country, Iraq will seem small in comparison. He gets mad at a foreign leader, he will just to decide to hit the button.

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@Olivier5,

When Trump said he's going to make America great again, that's code for white supremacy. Trump, the xenophobic racial bigot has no place in politics, local or national.

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@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

So you think we have survived Scalia? Hello, citizens united ring a bell?

Yes, that was a bad decision, but it only meant that the top 1/10th of one percent gets to decide who will be in charge, not the top one percent as before. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

revelette2 wrote:

Trump has called for all the relatives of terrorist to be killed along side with the terrorist, he has said no Muslims should be allowed to enter the US. Those are just a few of gems out of his mouth. Imagine a whole court of Scalia's and you can our see country being set back before the civil rights act and the right to choose and so forth.

I'm not sure why you're trying to convince me that Trump would be a bad president. On that point I agree with you completely. Shouldn't you instead be trying to convince me that your preferred candidate is the best choice, rather than arguing that all the others are worse?

revelette2 wrote:

You say you can't vote for some who voted for the Iraq war which eliminates an awful lot of democrats in congress.

Indeed. The vast majority of Democrats in congress are manifestly unqualified to be president.

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@joefromchicago,

I won't be choosing either.

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https://youtu.be/Wa0fOE-x84k
Springsteen does Dylan cause the times, they are a changing.

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