Holocaust: Gypsies Sue IBM in Geneva

Well the number of Roma & Sinti in the Netherlands is very low: what I know a few hundreds, maybe a few thousands, on a population of 16 million. A lot of Dutch Roma & Sinti were killed in the Holocaust, but eventually they were only a small part of the 250,000 Dutch deaths during WW II. When we Dutchmen talk about the Holocaust we only think about the 102,000 Dutch Jews who were killed - sadly enough.

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Not to be anti-Semitic though (before people think that!), I only think a lot of Dutchmen who died in the Holocaust are forgotten, or get only few attention, because of the fact the far majority of Dutchmen killed in WW II were Dutch Jews.

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They are called Roma and Sinti throughout Europe. However, especially the older generation (I mean, those few even older than me :wink: ) often fall back in old habits and call them "Gypsy".

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Media, too, it seems. Both articles posted use "Gypsies' left and right. Who knows. I haven't heard any outcries from the Roma community recently, but then again most of them have other, more pressing problems than reading western press.

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Right.

I've tried to dicuss this theme months back - 'buried' in thread with a different topic, if I remember correctly, and with no or only few understanding for it.

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Oh sigh. I'm interested. But what can one little me do to change things?

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dagmaraka wrote:

So I noticed. Was it ever debated in Netherlands? Because in Slovakia / Czech Republic /Poland /Hungary at least that was a big issue some 10 years back. Nobody uses 'Gypsy' anymore, only in derrogatory sense.

In Germany, almost all journalists and academics call them "Sinti and Roma" when talking about them collectively and in writing. When talking about individuals, and in spoken language, this practice creates discomfort because nobody knows how to tell Sintis from Romas, and few people know the singular form of these nouns. So most people, even the majority of educated people, will say: "See this fortune teller over there? I think she's a gypsy." Germans without higher education usually say "Zigeuner" (Gypsy) no matter if they're referring to the group or an individual.

In America, "Gypsy" is widely used, and not necessarily in an abusive way. For example, there is an interesting scholarly book titled"Gypsy Law", written by a professor at the University of Florida, published by the University of California Press, that isn't derogatory in tone at all. It usually refers to the people involved as "Romani", but often refers to them as "Gypsys" too.

So the correlation between saying "gypsy", and hating the group of people thus addressed, may well be weaker outside Slovakia than inside it.

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YEs, I noticed that in America - when I speak about Roma, I have to add Gypsy, because nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about. And it is not meant as an insult. At home, in Slovakia, and neighboring countries it is. But there is a lot more of them, proportionally, than anywhere else (Slovakia holding the first place with estimates up to 10% of population), so the debate was wide-spread. Interesting, we'll see what happens in the next few years.

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It's not a Slovak thing, Thomas. Discussion has been going on across Central + East Europe for a decade now, like dagmaraka says.

Here, we've only slowly been catching on. Newspapers and politicians have started switching to Roma and Sinti, but inconsistently so. Just the other day I saw de Volkskrant refer to "Roma Gypsies". There's some lack of habitude. On the street, its just "gypsies" ("zigeuners").

Then again, even in CEE the use has been varying, hasn't it Dagmar? I know the Roma NGO's, activists, etc, now almost all insist on "Roma", explaining why and how "Tzigane" and such stuff is derogatory. But in the various more or less far-flung Roma communities, this ethnic consciousness, so to say, has been much more patchy, I think?

One interesting case I came upon when researching Bulgarian politics was that, in the early and mid-nineties at least (dont know how its developed), the self-identification was largely along political lines. I mean, first off, of course, in censuses an overwhelming majority of the Roma population registered as either Bulgarian or Turkish, depending on local relations. But in more every-day self-identifications there was an additional confusion. Roma who remained loyal to the former communist party called themselves Tzigane (or what the exact spelling of that in Bulgarian is - "gypsy", thus). Whereas in communities leaning to the Democrats, they insisted on being Roma.

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Well, Thomas, I slightly disagree, too - and if only about the knowledge of the singular/plural forms. :wink:

However, the discusion about this truely went on in "our" part of Europe quite some years, especially in the 70's, when Hänschen Weis' songs were really popular (and not only to "elitist Django Reinhardt listeners" :wink: ).

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When I visited Bulgaria a year ago, the Bulgarians spoke about the Roma as something really dirty - 'gypsy' could be considered as an insult. It was really sad to see. When we were walking on the streets of Sofia, there were a lot of Roma sitting at sidewalks and stairs, begging. I really had a hard time to see that all. The Bulgarian friend I was with warned me though. He said 'don't give them anything, they only want more'. People just ignored them. Not to talk dirty about Bulgarians though, but at one point I just thought 'if they would all disappear, the people probably wouldn't even care'.

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Rick, that is unfortunately a common picture throughout CEE. Equally common are the stereotypes that Roma are dirty, lazy thieves who expect to be handed everything from the state.
That may even partially be true, but... and it's a large but, it has to do with the sad history of the Roma, annihilation of their traditional crafts by their forceful grounding and moving them to cement blocks of flats, breaking up their traditional large families...handing each one a job somewhere in a factory until 1989. Then all hell broke loose for them, ironically, with the oncoming freedom. They are unemployeable. For many reasons - for one, vast under-education (until some time ago over 50% of Roma kids, at least in Czech Republic and Slovakia, ended up in schools for mentally retarded - they would fail the entrance exams into primary schools for their first language is Roma and they didn't understand the tests), statistical discrimination (to the point of labor offices inscribing their applications with an 'R' for a Roma - a de-facto sentence to unemployment), etc. etc. No wonder som 90+ % depend on welfare.
The number is also unclear - as nimh pointed out, they claim mostly other than Roma identity - Slovak, Czech, Hungarian, whichever, only not Roma. The census data show some 2% of Slovak population are Roma. The estimates are up to 10%... Complicated stuff though - do we have a right to ascribe an ethnicity to them if they claim a different one in the census?
Yes, the references to Roma or Gypsies is patchy in Central Europe too. While media/politicians/educated elites/Roma leaders refrain from using 'Gypsy', majority population and Roma themselves use it often. But it still has a derrogatory connotation (even when used by themselves- as in 'you can't even look at us, gypsies, can you?!') whereas 'Roma' does not.

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I once read that many Roma are scared to be written down in the register (of births, deaths and marriages) because they still fear that it will be used to persecute them, as happened during WW II. In a magazine made by the EU, which I read at our local Chinese restaurant (a very good place to read such things!), there was also an article concerning the Roma in Eastern Europe. One Roma said in this article 'most young people who leave our community are afraid to say they are Roma. They just tell others they are (to give some examples) Slovak, or Hungarian. When they tell they are Roma, they say, they won't get a job'. The Roma who said this also said that it is actually hard to claim you are not Roma, because most Roma are easy recognizable (dark skinned). I also saw this in Bulgaria.

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From today's media:

Quote:

Eastern Europe's Gypsies Stay Put

Tuesday July 27, 2004 8:46 AM
By ANDREA DUDIKOVA

Associated Press Writer

BRATISLAVA, Slovakia (AP) - It bordered on hysteria and smacked of xenophobia. Now it looks like pure paranoia.

The European Union's historic enlargement into eastern Europe triggered fears in the West that Gypsies might leave their shabby homes in the East for jobs or government handouts in richer corners of the EU.

``Grateful Gypsies set to flee their homes,'' one newspaper warned in Britain, where the prospect of an exodus was particularly worrisome. ``Gypsies, you can't come,'' declared another.

But nearly three months after the May 1 expansion, officials say few have left for wealthier western Europe. In fact, some say EU membership gives them a new incentive to stay put.

Gypsies, also known as Roma, total 1 million in four of the EU's new member states - the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia - experts say.

Although Poland, with 39 million people, is by far the largest newcomer nation, it has the smallest Gypsy community at about 35,000 people. Roman Kwiatkowski, who heads a national Roma association, said there are no signs that Gypsies have left since May 1.

``Poland is a full EU member now, and that increased the attractiveness of the country,'' Kwiatkowski said.

Even in Slovakia, where Roma make up about 8 percent of the country's 5.4 million people, experts say only a few hundred have left behind shabby, segregated settlements without running water or sewage systems.

They include about 100 men who, according to the mayor of the eastern Slovakia village of Bystrany, left for seasonal work in England.

A second group had planned to join them, but now appear to be balking at the high cost of living in Britain and the relatively small amounts of cash the first group managed to send home.

``It's not all so rosy as they had thought,'' said the mayor, Radoslav Scuka. ``They are happier than living just on social welfare, but they expected more.''

One explanation for the lack of an exodus is that only a few of the 15 pre-expansion EU countries have agreed to open their job markets to newcomer citizens.

Only Sweden gives them unconditional access to jobs and welfare. Britain and Ireland have opened their labor markets but imposed restrictions on access to welfare benefits.

Ivan Vesely, a Roma activist in the Czech Republic, estimated that no more than 100 Czech Gypsies have left to seek work in Britain since enlargement, and ``most of them already returned home'' without success.

An inability to speak English is a hindrance, Vesely said. Slovak experts say others have difficulty scraping together enough cash to make the trip, or simply don't have the will to move elsewhere.

Small groups in the Czech Republic have begun taking English courses with the goal of eventually getting jobs in Britain, he said, ``But it takes time to learn a foreign language.''

Ludmila Sandorova, whose husband was among the Gypsies who left Slovakia's Bystrany for Britain, said he recently sent her 5,000 koruna ($155).

``He called me saying he makes 150 pounds ($280) a week,'' Sandorova told the Sme newspaper. ``He has to live on a hundred - the rest he puts away for us.''

``If I had known he'd make so little,'' she said, ``I'd never have let him go to England.''

Source

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Yes, the EU hysteria about expectations of a mass exodus of not just the Roma, but of a flood of all East Europeans hungry for work and benefits was always a bit funny to me. Oh well, at least it hopefully means there won't be obstacles in opening the markets up in 2007 or whenever it is scheduled for.

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The "EU hysteria", dear Dagmar, at the moment is just in the UK - we others know a bit longer, what's it all about :wink:

(The apergus and strawberry farmers could earn any money without the Polish helpers - not to mention the prostitutes from Bulgaria, Romania, Belarus ...)

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Yeah, but we still can't work almost anywhere, one or two exceptions, because the fear was there awhile ago....

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dagmaraka wrote:

Yeah, but we still can't work almost anywhere, one or two exceptions, because the fear was there awhile ago....

I agree -- this sucks. Sorry about that!

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dagmaraka wrote:

Yes, the EU hysteria about expectations of a mass exodus of not just the Roma, but of a flood of all East Europeans hungry for work and benefits was always a bit funny to me.

The famous EU hysteria yes. When the new 10 (mostly) Eastern European countries would join the EU definitely, people were immediately like 'before you know it, there are thousands and thousands of them'. Xenophobia. But after a time, government officials said that was basically just nonsense. The highest number of Eastern Europeans to arrive here in the Netherlands after the 10 new countries had joined the EU was expected to be around 40,000 (the Netherlands has 16 million inhabitants), but I doubt whether those 40,000 will ever come. It's just hysteria as you said. And what I recall, Walter, is that the same hysteria also took place in Germany (and Austria), where they thought hundreds of thousands of especially Poles would 'invade' Germany after the joining of those countries.

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Well, those "hundreds of thousands" of Polish have been here before - well-liked workers on aspergus and strawberry farms, in vineyards and .. ehem, brothels for instance, but liked as well in the used car business (which is down a bit, since we seem to have fullfilled all the Polish wishes more than three years ago and those from the Baltic states by last year). :wink:

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Holocaust: Gypsies Sue IBM in Geneva

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