8
   

So, Any thoughts on Bibi Netantahu's address to Congress

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 12:08 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
I think it's more serious than a split in the Republican Party. A foreign government skipped the State department and the President in an effort to
influence Congress. As a retired DOD employee, I would be charged with espionage, mishandling sensitive information and I'd probably get a cell right next to Jonathan Pollard. Frankly, I'd deserve it, it can't be defended as the American publics right to know, or saving the US from a coup. Israel stepped in it up to their necks this time.


Agreed.

And I suspect some of the people who RECEIVED the information in the congress would be facing indictments or worse.

Looks like everyone in the congress will get a pass...and Obama will tread lightly. No need to do something that will give the savages in the GOP any more influence over the direction of our country by helping them win more elections.
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 01:13 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, it's a major clusterfreep for everyone. I can't fathom the Israelies doing it nor politicians taking the bait. Congress is kept well informed about every step in negotiations, this security failure is huge. You know it's huge because little is being said. There will be severe ramifications. I assume we will never know what ramifications, but the Government of the United States cannot remain free if foreign government successfully derail policy by cherry picking intercepts and disclosing them to politicians who are too stupid to know they are not just making Obama or any sitting President look bad, but are actually engaged in treason.

Diplomacy is delicate and disturbing. The fact that Israel managed to penetrate our communications is our fault for being sloppy. However, they used it to influence American policy which is unforgivable. The good news (which is slim) is now we know where the weak spots are. Those weak spots have likely been strengthened and both the US and Israel will spend a ton of money to secure
our secure comms. The cost should be deducted from Israel's foreign aid package.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 03:13 pm
@glitterbag,
Glitter, If I may I would like to post one of the reasons I hate the state of Israel. In 1967 just before the Israeli government started another of its so called defensive wars they attacked a U S naval ship called the USS Liberty and tried to sink her even though she was flying the stars and stripes. Their aim was to kill everyone on the ship but were only able to kill 34 us seamen but they were able to wound 170 of the sailors. They claimed it was a mistake and they thought it was an Egyptian ship that dident look anything like the liberty. Due to the Jewish voting block the democratic president accepted their explanation because they were our allies. He just knew that they wouldent sink our ship to keep their plans for war secret. So as you see I accept their word that they would never spy on us because we are an ally. I also believe that the sun revolves around the earth and the earth is flat. Am I anti-semitic, no, I am anti-Isralie and hate the fact that both repub. and dems. kiss their ass no matter what they do.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 03:22 pm
@RABEL222,
Quote:
(I) hate the fact that both repub. and dems. kiss their ass no matter what they do.


Misplaced quilt is always a problem, and it has often been placed on purpose by schemers and opportunists. I am not sure Americans should have ever felt any guilty over what happened to the Jews, we did not do the evil, and we defeated the evil doers. For damn sure I carry no guilt for what happened to them.
nydia2013
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 03:59 pm
@RABEL222,
The United States has been ill-served by its close association with Israel. Because of this association, Americans have been tagged as legitimate targets by Israel's enemies. American diplomats from Italy to Lebanon to Sudan have been killed, and American travelers have been placed in peril, killed, or wounded in skyjackings and other acts of terror.

In the United states, Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan claimed he killed Senator Robert Kennedy because he resented Kennedy's support of Israel. Arab American Alex Odeh, the western regional director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee, was killed in 1985 by a bomb planted at his Santa Ana, California, office, victim of suspected members of the Jewish defense League.

American reporters and academics were held for years as hostages in Lebanon by groups protesting U.S. support for Israel, and 263 U.S. Marines and attached service personnel were killed and 151 wounded as they served in Lebanon in 1982-1984 to encourage the withdrawal of Israel and Syrian forces from Lebanese territory. In fact, Muslim anger at U.S. support of Israel resulted in driving out nearly all Americans during the last half of these 1980s from Lebanon, a country where Americans had prospered for these previous century.

Israel itself has even imperiled U.S. citizens. There are several documented instances in which Israel deliberately caused damage to U.S. property and injury or even death to Americans, among them the well-known Lavon Affair of 1954

[http://intellit.muskingum.edu/intellsite/israel_folder/israellavon.html]

when Israeli agents attacked American installations in Egypt in an effort to damage U.S.-Egyptian relations.

Other examples are Israel's 1967 attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 Americans and wounded 171 and the systematic pattern of Israeli harassment of the U.S. marine peacekeeping forces in Lebanon in 1983-1984.

The Israeli behavior in Lebanon became so provocative that Marine Commandant General R.H. Barrow complained about it in a public letter to secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger: "It is evident to me, and the opinion of the U.S. commanders afloat and ashore, that the incidents between the Marines and the IDF [Israeli Defense Forces] are timed, orchestrated, and executed for obtuse Israeli political purposes." Barrow detailed eight instances of Marine-IDF clashes that he characterized as "life-threatening situations, replete with verbal degradation of the officers, their uniform, and country." His letter added: "It is inconceivable to me why Americans serving in peacekeeping roles---must be harassed, endangered by an ally."
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oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 05:32 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
And I suspect some of the people who RECEIVED the information in the congress would be facing indictments or worse.

No crime was committed. Mr. Obama is just trying to distract everyone from Mr. Netanyahu's criticisms of the deal that he is negotiating.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Mar, 2015 08:20 pm
Quote:
Today the number of Israeli settlers on the West Bank exceeds 350,000. There are an additional 300,000 Jews living in settlements across the pre-1967 border in East Jerusalem. Thousands more settlement homes are planned or under construction. Despite his best efforts, John Kerry, the US secretary of state, failed to get the Netanyahu government to accept a settlement freeze as a precondition for renewing the peace talks suspended in 2010. As long as Netanyahu remains in power, it is a safe bet that no breakthrough will be achieved in the new round of talks. He is the procrastinator par excellence, the double-faced prime minister who pretends to negotiate the partition of the pizza while continuing to gobble it up.

The Oslo accords had many faults, chief of which was the failure to proscribe settlement expansion while peace talks were in progress. But the agreement was not doomed to failure from the start, as its critics allege. Oslo faltered and eventually broke down because Likud-led governments negotiated in bad faith. This turned the much-vaunted peace process into a charade. In fact, it was worse than a charade: it provided Israel with just the cover it was looking for to continue to pursue with impunity its illegal and aggressive colonial project on the West Bank.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/12/oslo-israel-reneged-colonial-palestine

Avi Shlaim FBA (born 31 October 1945) is an Iraqi-born British/Israeli historian. He is emeritus professor of International Relations at the University of Oxford and a fellow of the British Academy. Shlaim is considered one of Israel's New Historians,[1] a group of Israeli scholars who put forward critical interpretations of the history of Zionism and Israel.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avi_Shlaim
Frank Apisa
 
  5  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2015 05:29 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
And I suspect some of the people who RECEIVED the information in the congress would be facing indictments or worse.

No crime was committed. Mr. Obama is just trying to distract everyone from Mr. Netanyahu's criticisms of the deal that he is negotiating.


I did not say anything about President Obama. I said that I suspect some of the congress people who RECEIVED stolen (probably classified) information obtained by espionage...would be facing indictment or worse.

I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect your assertion that no crime was committed is a product of your bias in this matter rather than any legal knowledge you might be sharing.
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2015 07:33 am
@Frank Apisa,
He always speaks as though he is the last fount of absolute authority. I think he has delusions of being a god. JMO
revelette2
 
  4  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2015 07:48 am
I am not sure if the following article is wishful thinking just like the top of the article talks about, but it sure is interesting.

Quote:
Those of us who regularly observe and try to make sense of the madness sweeping the Middle East often find ourselves, perhaps out of desperation, engaging in wishful thinking, hoping that in the end, reason will prevail over lunacy. We analyze unfolding events, dissect patent facts, reassess our assumptions, and try to discern where we were right and where we erred, but we often find ourselves exactly where we began.

Nevertheless, this self-agonizing search for reason and understanding still reveals another dimension to our human frailty. We choose to live in the cocoon we have grown accustomed to out of fear or complacency, however stifling or even deadly it may be, rather than break out and seek new horizons, regardless of how necessary and promising they could be.

I lament the results of the Israeli elections, not because I disrespect and distrust Netanyahu but because a relative majority of Israelis choose to continue living in the bubble, fearful of changing the status quo even though it will inevitably burst.

The damning consequences Netanyahu's new government will inflict on the country are as certain as night following day. Israel, which has been led astray by Netanyahu for so long, is fast approaching a new precipice unlike any other it has faced in years past.

Following the wrath he brought upon his head for his earlier statement that there will be no Palestinian state under his watch, Netanyahu once again changed his mind only two days following the elections, stating in an interview on MSNBC that he wants "a sustainable, peaceful two-state solution."

This reversal of his true position is tactical, designed to play for time, and is just another cheap political stunt.

The Europeans, Americans, and Palestinians, who have had extensive experience with him throughout the peace process, fully recognize his duplicity. He has lost every grain of credibility, and no one will trust that he will negotiate in good faith in the future.

Moreover, his coalition government, which is in the making, will certainly include his natural partner, the right-of-center political parties, who oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state under any circumstances and will not join his government for one day if they believe his reversal is genuine.

What does Netanyahu think the Palestinians will do now that he has revealed his bigotry? What choice did he leave them with but to resort to the United Nations Security Council (UNSC), demanding the recognition of a Palestinian state while seeking retribution against Israel in the International Criminal Court?

Having been misled, lied to, and humiliated by Netanyahu, President Obama, who spent precious time, resources, and political capital on the peace process, is left with no choice but to seek a UNSC resolution that calls for a two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.

Although such a measure is the most positive the U.S. can take to safeguard Israel's future as a democratic and Jewish state, it is a crushing defeat for Netanyahu, who desperately sought to obstruct the rise of a Palestinian state by relying on the U.S. to shield his perverted scheme.

The European Union, who has long viewed the Israeli settlements as illegal, will now be fully convinced that Netanyahu has no intention of ending the occupation. Encouraged by Obama's change of position, they will initiate Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against Israeli products made in the Palestinian territories.

Furthermore, many European countries will follow Sweden and recognize the Palestinian state, labeling Israel as an occupying power of a sovereign nation and subjecting it to increasing political pressure and, potentially, economic sanctions.

The Arab states, especially Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia -- who find themselves thrust into regional upheaval in the wake of the civil war in Syria, the rise of ISIS and the Iranian threat -- view an Israeli-Palestinian peace agreement as central to regional stability.

They have been working behind the scenes to restrain the Palestinians from rising violently against Israel. They now feel at a loss, unable to control the potential eruption of a third Intifada, as the Palestinians are now more determined than ever to rid themselves of the bondage of occupation.

Finally, throughout the past six years, and especially during the election campaign, Netanyahu repeatedly crossed the line of political civility. He demonstrated his racism when he implored his followers to come out and vote to neutralize the influx of Israeli Arab voters.

Although he recently apologized for his chauvinistic statement, his apology cannot be accepted, as he knew exactly what he was saying and meant it. Netanyahu reminds me of Aristophanes: "You won't persuade me even if you convince me."

Moreover, he polarized the Israeli public while alienating a large segment of American Jews and the Democratic Party by making a mockery of U.S.-Israeli relations.

Where will all this lead to? Will Netanyahu, at age 65, begin to think of his legacy? What kind of Israel does he want to leave behind?

I believe that Netanyahu will remain true to his ideological upbringing and prevent the creation of a Palestinian state, believing that it will rob the Jews of their historic/biblical right to the "entire land of Israel," stretching from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River.

He will expropriate yet more Palestinian land, expand the settlements, and play for time believing that he will outlast Obama, and hoping that the next president will be a conservative Republican who will let him rampage through what is left of the West Bank.

The tens of thousands of Israelis who demonstrated a few days before the election, led by Meir Dagan and other top former security officials, cannot allow this to happen by giving Netanyahu free rein. They and hundreds of thousands more Israelis must now persistently engage in demonstrations and civil disobedience, forcing him to either change his policies and seek genuine peace or step down.

Only the public en masse coupled with outside (especially American) pressure can make Netanyahu realize that Israel's destiny is intertwined with an independent Palestinian state and that neither can live in peace and security without the other.

But as a deep ideologue, he discards the facts and chooses to cling to his wishful thinking, especially because Israel has been successful in beating the odds, presumably justifying his chosen path.

Netanyahu, however, ignores the evidence that times have changed, and regardless of how successful he was, it should not blind him from grasping that Israel's future well-being depends on a two-state solution. But as T. S. Eliot once observed, "Human kind cannot bear very much reality." And for Netanyahu, a Palestinian state is simply too much reality to bear.

Having flip-flopped in the past, perhaps he will soon be struck with a spasm of lucidity, change his mind again, and recognize that peace with the Palestinians provides Israel with the ultimate security.

If Netanyahu really cares about Israel's future security, peace should be the legacy he would want to leave behind.

Follow Alon Ben-Meir on Twitter: www.twitter.com/AlonBenMeir



source
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2015 05:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
Today the number of Israeli settlers on the West Bank exceeds 350,000. There are an additional 300,000 Jews living in settlements across the pre-1967 border in East Jerusalem. Thousands more settlement homes are planned or under construction. Despite his best efforts, John Kerry, the US secretary of state, failed to get the Netanyahu government to accept a settlement freeze as a precondition for renewing the peace talks suspended in 2010.

The settlements are a fake issue. The Palestinians never cared about continued settlement construction when Ehud Olmert was offering them 1967 borders and the Palestinians were refusing to come and negotiate with him. They only brought up the issue when Mr. Netanyahu was elected and they needed a new excuse for their refusal to negotiate.

And a few years ago Mr. Obama convinced Mr. Netanyahu to halt settlement construction for 10 months. Even with this halt to settlement construction, the Palestinians still refused to come and negotiate.

Also, history shows quite clearly that settlements are no impediment to Israeli withdrawal from land. There were settlers in the Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza Strip, yet Israel was still able and willing to give up both pieces of land.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 26 Mar, 2015 05:22 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I did not say anything about President Obama.

Yes, but I did. I am saying that all this fuss is just an attempt by Mr. Obama to distract the public from Mr. Netanyahu's points.

Maybe it isn't being done by Mr. Obama himself, but by other people in the Obama Administration.


Frank Apisa wrote:
I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect your assertion that no crime was committed is a product of your bias in this matter rather than any legal knowledge you might be sharing.

It is more the realm of factual matters rather than legal knowledge.

The basis of my claim that there was no crime is not some kind of fancy legal interpretation. I'm saying that I do not think that any sort of wrongdoing was committed to begin with.
0 Replies
 
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glitterbag
 
  5  
Reply Sun 29 Mar, 2015 01:28 pm
@oralloy,
I wanted to thank you personally for lending your personal sense of angry moronic thinking to the thread. You always manage to bring conversation to a screeching halt. Is there some reason you can't start your own discussion? Are you concerned no one would respond? The internet has more than it's fair share of haters, I'm sure you could attract that crowd.

If anyone is still reading this discussion since Oral established squatters rights, I need to point out that my original point was that a foreign leader was invited to address Congress and accepted in an attempt to thwart the will of the American people.

PS, it's not about Amanda Knox either.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2015 06:39 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Most welcome. Anything else I can do for you
?

Leave? Like you promised pages ago?
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  4  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2015 10:42 pm
McCain Joins Bolton, Invites Israel to Bomb Iran
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Tue 31 Mar, 2015 10:49 pm
@revelette2,
Holy mother of God, how many Americans have to be maimed or killed before these armchair warriors are satisfied. I doubt our allies will go along with such a moronic mission, and I would respect that. We might be lemmings, but the rest of the world will probably not want to join us in a suicide mission.
 

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