gollum
 
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 03:54 pm
Have there been any Fifth Columns in world military history?
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Type: Question • Score: 8 • Views: 2,410 • Replies: 27
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 04:10 pm
@gollum,
Your question is ambiguous. If you mean have there been bodies of troops within a beseiged city who came to the aid of an attacking force, then certainly--two examples which come immediately to mind are the battle of Lincoln in 1141 during the Anarchy (supporters of Maud the Empress held the citadel in the city, and poured out into the city when Stephen of Blois' army was defeated just outside the city); and the siege of Soissons in 1414--someone took the Paris gate in a rush and opened it to French troops--the drawbridge of the citadel was down and the portcullis was up and the French were able to take the citadel in a coup de main assault. (The ugly irony is that the Duke of Bourbon then gave the city up to the sack, although the inhabitants were widely known to be loyal to the King. The French troops pillaged, raped and murdered for three nights and two days.)

So in a strict and inexact sense, the answer is yes. Whether or not there was actually ever a fifth column of trained, equipped troops secreted in a city, which is what General Mola wanted people to believe when he spread his propaganda, however, is a different matter. I can't think of any such event.
gollum
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Dec, 2014 06:27 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta-

Thank you. You are very knowledgeable.

I meant the looser sense. I think during World War II, many Americans were fearful that Americans who were ethnic Japanese and ethnic German might attack us from within.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 04:03 am
@gollum,
Yes, they feared the Japanese Americans--and with no good reason at all. Americans of German descent were not subjected to the same penalties as were Americans of Japanese descent.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 05:20 am
@Setanta,
Detention of the 13000 or so German-Americans in Camp Forrest Tenn and ACmp Blanding Fla is a dirty little secret. Germans (ist gen and 2nd gens) along the East Coast were also "Moved" inland because of th fear that came along with the attempts on sabotaging the HorseShoe Curve and the Pa RR.

During WWII the Pa RR still did a lot of gage changing here entire train carriges hD TO BE SHIFTED TO WIDER OR NARROWER gage trucks.It was a target since it was a lifeline of steel.

Camp Forrest is in S central Tenessee and is ttached to te ARNOLD AFB. We did an envirometal cleanup there in the 90s and came across a whole archeological "dig" that was being done to help understand the whole interment programs that wwre in effect for German AMericans and Italian Americans. It was in no way anywhere near the numbers of those interred s compred to the Japanese but it did occur nd weve pretty much kept it under the rug.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 05:37 am
Well over 100,000 Americans of Japanese descent were interned. More than 60% of them were American citizens. Their properties and businesses were seized, for which they were not compensated. The internees were held until 1949, four years after the war ended. As i said, Americans of German descent (then, as now, the largest single immigrant group in the United States) were not subject to the same penalties as Americans of Japanese descent. Also-as i pointed out, neither group ever proved to be a threat to the United States, and the 442nd Regimental Combat Team/100the Infantry Battalion was the most decorated combat unit of the Second World War. The 442nd was made up Japanese Americans from the west coast, the 100th Battalion of Japanese Americans from Hawaii.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 05:48 am
According to this article at Wikipedia, there were, literally, millions of Americans born in Germany, or having two parents born in Germany. More than 10 times as many Japanese Americans were interned as German Americans. Also according to Wikipedia, the Japanese American population of the continental United States was 127,000, and that of Hawaii, 150,000 (where fewer than 2000 were interned). There were almost ten times as many ethnic Germans, born in Germany, as Japanese Americans of all categories resident in the continental United States. As early as the first decade of the 20th century, the first President Roosevelt was complaining about institutional racism against the Japanese on the west coast, particularly in California.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 06:02 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Also-as i pointed out, neither group ever proved to be a threat to the United States


Not even the members and the leadership of The German American Bund, or German American Federation?

Quote:
Also-as i pointed out, neither group ever proved to be a threat to the United States, and the 442nd Regimental Combat Team/100the Infantry Battalion was the most decorated combat unit of the Second World War. The 442nd was made up Japanese Americans from the west coast, the 100th Battalion of Japanese Americans from Hawaii.


True however what does not get must coverage are the Japanese Americans that refused to serve during WW2 and was draft resisters.

BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 06:11 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
As i said, Americans of German descent (then, as now, the largest single immigrant group in the United States) were not subject to the same penalties as Americans of Japanese descent


Once more true however there was not a Nazis fleet in being that could threaten a massive attack on the East Coast of the US while there was for a period of time such a Japanese fleet in being that could have attacked the West coast of the US.

The military situation/concerns was not the same for either group for that reason alone and take note the Japanese have invaded and taken over US islands off the Alaska coast.
tsarstepan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 06:13 am
@gollum,
http://i59.tinypic.com/6ds8sx.gif
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 06:18 am
@BillRM,
Suppose you tell us what harm the German American Bund and the German American Federation did to the United States during World War II, bright boy.

Quote:
True however what does not get must coverage are the Japanese Americans that refused to serve during WW2 and was draft resisters.


"Were draft resisters," bright boy--why don't you learn what one sadly assumes is your native language? Frankly, i don't blame any Japanese American who refused to erve under the circumstances. Your remarks are meaningless unless you can give figures of the number of Japanese American draft resisters as a proportion of all draft resisters. I'll repeat that i don't blame any of them who refused to serve or resisted the draft. As usual, you shoot your mouth off, but your alleged knowledge of history is illusory.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 06:19 am
@tsarstepan,
Hehehehehehehehe . . .
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 06:24 am
@BillRM,
Take note that more than half of the ethnic Japanese population of the United States lived in Hawaii, and no harm has ever been alleged and proven against them. How was a Japanese fleet supposed to fuel and resupply in order to attack the west coast of the United States? The Aleutian Islands which the Japanese invaded were closer to Sapporo in Japan than they were to the naval bases of the west coast of the United States. You're a f*cking idiot masquerading as someone who knows something.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 06:37 am
Ironically, Walter Short, who commanded United States Army forces in the Hawaii Department (and therefore, commanded the United States Army Air Force in Hawaii) was so obsessed with the thought of fifth columnists, that he had fighter aircraft pushed to centers of the runways on airfields so as to be as far away from the perimeter fences as possible, and had the bunkers where AAA ammunition was stored locked, the keys being in the possession of the duty officers. His "thinking" was that saboteurs would use AAA ammunition to damage or destroy USAAF aircraft. (Cf. At Dawn We Slept, Godron Prange et al)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 06:49 am
By the way, the distance from Dutch Harbor in Alaska to Seattle, Washington is almost 2000 miles (as the crow flies). By land, any Japanese force landed at Dutch Harbor would have had more than 3000 miles to march to reach the "lower 48." The notion that the Japanese were any threat to the continental United States is ludicrous.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 09:04 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
blame any Japanese American who refused to erve under the circumstances.


True however if you are going to grant credit for those Japanese Americans that sign up and fought well for the US then you have to subtract credit for those who refused to service at all.

Quote:
Suppose you tell us what harm the German American Bund and the German American Federation did to the United States during World War II, bright boy.


LOL little to none but how does that impacted the concerns the government at the time have over the matter?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 09:09 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
How was a Japanese fleet supposed to fuel and resupply in order to attack the west coast of the United States?


First warships of that era have the range to cross the Pacific without refueling and you do know you can refuel such ships while underway from tankers as the US happen to had done on a routine basic during that war?

BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 09:18 am
Quote:


http://michellemalkin.com/2004/09/06/the-military-threat-to-the-west-coast-during-world-war-ii/


At WorldNetDaily, columnist Vox Day argues that “[t]here was never a genuine military threat to the West Coast” during World War II. Further, Mr. Vox argues that this is not merely a hindsight conclusion since “the facts and logistics of the Pacific situation were very well known to American military strategists at the time.”
Mr. Vox has got his facts wrong. There is no question that in early 1942 our military leaders believed the risk of a Japanese attack on the West Coast was substantial.
Henry Stimson, President Roosevelt’s Secretary of War, stated in his autobiography that hit-and-run raids on the West Coast were “not only possible, but probable in the first months of the war, and it was quite impossible to be sure that the raiders would not receive important help from individuals of Japanese origin.”
That is enough to knock down Mr. Vox’s argument, but if you are still not convinced, click below.

As I noted in my book and in an earlier blog entry, the concern among our military leaders about a Japanese attack on the West Coast was palpable even after Executive Order 9066 was signed in February 1942:
After the daring Halsey-Doolittle raid in Tokyo in April, “[e]ight Japanese carriers had returned from their operations around southeastern Asia and the Japanese could release at least three of the eight for a retaliatory attack on the west coast without jeopardizing successes already achieved,” Army historian Stetson Conn recounted. Secretary of War Stimson “called in General Marshall and had a few earnest words with him about the danger of a Jap attack on the West Coast.” Stimson confessed that he was “very much impressed with the danger that the Japanese, having terribly lost face by this recent attack on them ? , will make a counterattack on us with carriers.” General DeWitt’s superiors warned him to be on guard against a carrier attack at any time after May 10 and was informed that two more antiaircraft regiments were being sent to bolster the Los Angeles and San Francisco defenses.
Preceding the pivotal Battle of Midway, which the U.S. was alerted to thanks to another extraordinary communications intelligence operation that partially cracked JN-25, the Japanese navy’s operational code, the West Coast again prepared for the worst. Gen. Marshall informed General DeWitt that a Japanese attack with a chemical weapon might be expected; in mid-May, 350,000 gas masks (the entire available supply), protective clothing, and decontamination supplies were hastily shipped to the west coast. MID concurred with the Navy that a strong Japanese attack on American territory was in the offing before the end of the month, but it forecast that the “first priority” target of the attack would be “hit and run raids on West Coast cities of the continental United States supported by heavy naval forces.” Army intelligence held that such action was entirely within Japanese capabilities, considering the weakness of American naval power, and urged the concentration on the Pacific coast of all available continental air power to meet the threat.
The perception among our military leaders of risks to the West Coast in early 1942 is so well documented that I am surprised one of my critics would choose this line of attack. Did Mr. Vox even bother to read my book before slamming it?
There was no analogous concern, by the way, about a major German or Italian attack on the East Coast. Neither Germany nor Italy had any aircraft carriers, whereas Japan’s surface fleet was the best in the world.
I will agree with Mr. Vox about one thing. The risk of a full-blown invasion of the U.S. mainland was low. This was known at the time. As I made clear in my book, the principal concern was spot raids on the West Coast (such as the one that occurred at Pearl Harbor), not a major invasion.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 09:32 am
@BillRM,
Apropos warships: Chester Nimitz's grandfather was in the German merchant marine (and his mother was a German-American as well). And his grandfather's "house" is now the National Museum of the Pacific War.

Göring's nephew, USAAF Captain Werner Goering, was in command of a B-17 and nearly shot down on November 21, 1944, over the Leuna chemical complex.
BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Dec, 2014 09:48 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Apropos warships: Chester Nimitz's grandfather was in the German merchant marine (and his mother was a German-American as well). And his grandfather's "house" is now the National Museum of the Pacific War.

Göring's nephew, USAAF Captain Werner Goering, was in command of a B-17 and nearly shot down on November 21, 1944, over the Leuna chemical complex.


Yes and how does these interesting facts change the concerns of the US government over first or even second generation German or Japanese Americans with special note of those who had been members of US supporting organizations for those two nations?

Take note that not even American hero Charles Lindbergh was fully trusted due to his prewar relationship with the German Luftwaffe and could not service in uniform as a result.
 

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