Can we ever really know reality?

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Is there a difference on the meaning of the EXACT quote from my texting of your quote ? Point me to it.

It seems to me you are stalling and that is not nice nor proper behaviour.

Whatever IS...IS, Fil.

Do you disagree with that?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

It not a matter if I agree or not. YOU KNOW I DO AGREE. I am talking that it implies knowledge ! IT MUST man !!! Freaking simple.
Also I know you well enough for long enough and have enough proximity to straight tell you just shut and put up. Its correct !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

It not a matter if I agree or not. YOU KNOW I DO AGREE. I am talking that it implies knowledge ! IT MUST man !!! Freaking simple.
Also I know you well enough for long enough and have enough proximity to straight tell you just shut and put up. Its correct !

I HAVE NEVER SUGGESTED THAT I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE!

You have simply invented that...so that you could have something with which to disagree.

That is why I ask you to directly quote me...as I quote you.

Here is a question along the lines of the one you are asking me here:

Why are you saying that you know exactly what REALITY is?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I do not have to know all that there is to know about reality to confidently state I know something about reality and thus that not all what I do is a blind guess !

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

I do not have to know all that there is to know about reality to confidently state I know something about reality and thus that not all what I do is a blind guess !

And I have never suggested otherwise. So why bring that up? (Another question that probably will not be answered!)

What I said was a "blind guess" was what JL said.

What he said...is quite different from "I know something about reality."

He was telling us what REALITY is.

Quote:

All reality, as experienced, is subjective to the individual; indeed it IS the individual.

That MAY BE so…but he is stating it as a truth being revealed. It MAY ALSO be nonsense.

That is why I called it a blind guess.

If you do not think it is a blind guess…tell me what you think it is…and we can discuss it.

That would be polite!

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Then we have no ACTUAL disagreement.
Still think what JL says is useful in more ways then meets the eye. He is just "wording lazy" and entitled to being so...when I get to his age I will probably be twice as much lazy then what he is right now.

1 Reply

@Fil Albuquerque,

Fil Albuquerque wrote:

Then we have no ACTUAL disagreement.
Still think what JL says is useful in more ways then meets the eye. He is just "wording lazy" and entitled to being so...when I get to his age I will probably be twice as much lazy then what he is right now.

Thank you, Fil. Throughout this thing I have been of the opinion that we have no actual disagreement.

And I also think that lots of what JL says is useful...in fact most of the things he says are interesting and useful. My disagreements with JL has almost been about stating the things he states as facts...rather than possibilities among many other possibilities.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank reduced his argument to "Whatever is...is". I think he can reduce it further to the "valley girl" thesis of: "Whatever!"

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

My disagreements with JL has almost been about stating the things he states as facts...rather than possibilities among many other possibilities.

I guess that your "possibilities" are out of question when we talk about reality

You observe a piece of gold. With your naked eyes you see its metallic color. You can touch it, melt it, carve it, hear its sound when drop to the floor, taste it, and even try to see if any special odor comes from it.

Then you say that there is a possibility that gold is not the color that it represents for us.

And you are damn right!

Using a microscope at nano scale, the color of gold is composed of several tones, even purple. So, for a microbe standing on the surface of the piece of gold, this microbe can see it as a mixed color big land.

For us, using our naked eyes, gold still is known by its metallic color.

The bad news for you, is that even when your "possibility" is correct about the color of gold, it never compromises that the piece of gold still is is gold, still is matter, still is objective, still can be touched, melted, carved, etc.

There are no possibilities that if we don't exist then the piece of gold also lacks of its existence. Such is crap philosophy, because my grandfather has passed away long ago and his jewelry still existing, and if the world population dies today, the entire universe will continue their motion without us anyway.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Frank reduced his argument to "Whatever is...is". I think he can reduce it further to the "valley girl" thesis of: "Whatever!"

No...that is not correct...and is unnecessarily dismissive and demeaning of an important point.

2 Replies

@carloslebaron,

The gold may be an illusion. The "you" in your comment may be an illusion.

If that is the case, the illusions would be real...but the gold and the you would not be.

If you cannot understand that...this may not be a subject you should be discussing.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Dismissive? Perhaps, if you think I consider the "Valleygirl Thesis" to be wrong. Actually, it has some similarity to Nietzsche's very profound amor fati.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Dismissive? Perhaps, if you think I consider the "Valleygirl Thesis" to be wrong. Actually, it has some similarity to Nietzsche's very profound amor fati (love your destiny).

0 Replies

@JLNobody,

JLNobody wrote:

Dismissive? Perhaps, if you think I consider the "Valleygirl Thesis" to be wrong. Actually, it has some similarity to Nietzsche's very profound amor fati.

Your "Valley Girl thesis" (which you refer to as "whatever") is inherently dismissive, JL. I do not consider the expression "whatever" to be wrong...but I do consider it to be dismissive...of everything. It is used almost exclusively as a dismissive (almost contemptuous) comment.

Frankly, it bears such a superficial resemblance to the tautology "what IS...IS"...that I am hard pressed to see it.

I think it a considerable stretch to compare it to anything Nietzsche said.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

The gold may be an illusion. The "you" in your comment may be an illusion.

If that is the case, the illusions would be real...but the gold and the you would not be.

If you cannot understand that...this may not be a subject you should be discussing.

The fish dies because its mouth (hooked by the fisherman)

Illusions are just misinterpretations of reality.

Learned it, live it, love it.

1 Reply

I find it very interesting that people can with one breath proclaim faith in an unseen, unknowable, divine creator that has magical powers, then in the next breath claim to know reality. Interesting. Faith seems to entail not knowing. If you knew, it wouldn't be faith; it would be knowledge. I find that paradoxical.

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

I confess that I am hanging loose with that comment, but consider "whatever" and "amor fati" to both mean that once something has happened accept it, that embracing reality is the sanest way to be. By the way do you never suspect that others sometimes feel your attribution of "blind guessing" to their conjectural efforts not to be a bit dismissive?

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

Acceptance is the sanest way to be, if it is a complete receptivity to the world exactly as it is. I don't think this is fatalism. One can accept what is now yet work to change it in the future. Whatever.

1 Reply

@JLNobody,

Acceptance with accurate guessing builds confidence.

0 Replies

@carloslebaron,

carloslebaron wrote:

Quote:
The gold may be an illusion. The "you" in your comment may be an illusion.

If that is the case, the illusions would be real...but the gold and the you would not be.

If you cannot understand that...this may not be a subject you should be discussing.

The fish dies because its mouth (hooked by the fisherman)

Illusions are just misinterpretations of reality.

Learned it, live it, love it.

Carlos...as respectfully as possible: You simply are not equipped for this discussion. You ought really to try some other subject.

2 Replies

Can we ever really know reality?

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