58
   

Are there any peaceful muslim nations?

 
 
vikorr
 
  0  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 01:10 pm
@parados,
Quote:
In fact, on looking at your sources, it is you that spent less than an hour doing research. Your links are ridiculous and are not sourced with any actual data from scientific studies or polling.


I take it you don't want to quote the references to the hundreds of real world events huh

No...not...scientific studies, just:
- (as previously mentioned) hundreds of real world events
- quotes from muslim leaders spouting violence in the name of Islam.
- quotes from the Quran & the Haddith promoting violence
- Historical fact of the violence of it's founder
- violent events that match the quran / haddith / and the founders actions
__________________
Quote:
More nonsense from you where you use Libyan rebels as a proxy for all muslims in support of a claim you made then you use some answer on a answers.com that is unsourced.
How odd - did you not notice how I qualified those references?... directly after the link you have issue with
Quote:
Like most people Set, the things we say are from things we have either read of experienced. A quick google search brought up the following, and no I haven't bothered to validate them.
I am by the way happy to be wrong about that - the point of the links were that there are places out there claiming higher percentages than what I stated, and other sources that give lower to equal....as I qualified: from a very quick search that I had not validated.
______________________
It's not unexpected that you wouldn't use the great number examples of actual violent acts...when that's primary evidence that the topic of whether or not Islam is dangerous must rest on

Unfortunately parados, the way you avoid talking about what you don't want to talk about renders your credibility a mess.

In contrast, I have discussed everything you want that has sound reasoning (I've pulled you up when your reasoning is flawed), linked plenty of evidence / events to my opinion, am happy to point out information I am not sure of, am happy to acknowledge legitimate arguments from your end, and am happy to change my mind...

... just so long as someone comes up with a valid, non-evasive, and principle founded reason/s that I am wrong....the reason/s must stand up to, and match the patterns, of real world events....the primary real world events being the wide, frequent and ongoing violence in the name of Islam (which you declined to link to)

Of course...alcoholics can deny for ages that they have a problem with all sorts of nonsense excuses that avoid talking about the actual problem...as can people in abusive relationships justify how the other person 'is actually really good' with talk that avoids discussing the actual problem...the point being avoiding talking about offered evidence (in this case of violent acts) does not mean there's not a problem.

STart with (A)
parados
 
  2  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 01:46 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:

I take it you don't want to quote the references to the hundreds of real world events huh

No...not...scientific studies, just:
- (as previously mentioned) hundreds of real world events
- quotes from muslim leaders spouting violence in the name of Islam.
- quotes from the Quran & the Haddith promoting violence
- Historical fact of the violence of it's founder
- violent events that match the quran / haddith / and the founders actions

Anecdotal evidence doesn't support any claim that Islam is violent. It can only be used to point out some of the followers of Islam are violent. Without scientific studies you have no real evidence. Perhaps you should do the actual work that you claim you did instead of proving you have nothing to support you idiocy but ipse dixit ramblings.

Quote:
It's not unexpected that you wouldn't use the great number examples of actual violent acts...when that's primary evidence that the topic of whether or not Islam is dangerous must rest on
Which shows how nonsensical your argument is. One could find a great number of examples of Priests molesting children. I can find quotes from the bible about selling young daughters into slavery. There are Christian sects that marry off young girls and quotes from those leaders supporting that. Does that allow me to argue that Christianity is made up of child molesters who have sex with young children? Your argument is just as ludicrous when you use anecdotal evidence and declare it can be used to describe the whole group.

Quote:
Unfortunately parados, the way you avoid talking about what you don't want to talk about renders your credibility a mess.
Your logical fallacies make your arguments pretty meaningless.

Quote:
.the point being avoiding talking about offered evidence (in this case of violent acts) does not mean there's not a problem.
Here we go back to defining the problem based on the evidence. You have defined the problem wrong when you claim it is Islam that is causing the violence. Islam is not the problem. Some people that claim to be Islamic are the problem.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 02:17 pm
@parados,
There are also plenty of anecdotal evidence that Americans and America are terrorists.
JTT
 
  -2  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 02:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
There are[sic] also plenty of anecdotal evidence that Americans and America are terrorists.


"anecdotal evidence", you're really a hoot, CI! An abysmally ignorant one but a hoot nonetheless.

--------------------

John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He is a very compelling speaker and the highest level CIA officer to testify to the Congress about his actions. He estimates that over 6 million people have died in CIA covert actions, and this was in the late 1980's.

THE SECRET WARS OF THE CIA:

by John Stockwell

A lecture given in October, 1987

Part I - Part II

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4068.htm



0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 06:00 pm
@parados,
Here we go back to defining the problem based on the evidence. You have defined the problem wrong when you claim it is Islam that is causing the violence. Islam is not the problem. Some people that claim to be Islamic are the problem.

No, the people that believe that are the problem. They are fundamental Muslims following the Koran the way Mohammed intended it to be followed. That has been proven in every translation. Every respected and accepted schools on Islam come to that conclusion as any objective person would come to.

You are not objective. You your trust in excuses, not facts. You really aren't qualified to even debate this situation unless you can show me one move toward peace Islamics have provided.
One Eyed Mind
 
  -1  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 07:14 pm
@coldjoint,
I noticed something about these sites.

You have the A Group that bands together as mosquitoes and vultures.

You have the B Group that are simply too good for the site.

You have the C Group that A and B hate, the absolute idiots, not just humans with selfish purposes that deprive themselves of knowledge and growth, which group A and group B band together against, while group A does not realize this.

This picture sums it up.

You and I are Plato; everyone else are chained prisoners: http://www.litigationps.com/.a/6a01156e439be2970c01538e2889c2970b-800wi

Fact: There are countless shadows, but there is only one fireplace.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 07:29 pm
@One Eyed Mind,
Quote:
You and I are Plato;


You should know how I feel about duality by now. But you have made your point.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 10:48 pm
@parados,
Quote:
It's not unexpected that you wouldn't use the great number examples of actual violent acts...when that's primary evidence that the topic of whether or not Islam is dangerous must rest on
Quote:
Which shows how nonsensical your argument is. One could find a great number of examples of Priests molesting children. I can find quotes from the bible about selling young daughters into slavery. There are Christian sects that marry off young girls and quotes from those leaders supporting that. Does that allow me to argue that Christianity is made up of child molesters who have sex with young children? Your argument is just as ludicrous when you use anecdotal evidence and declare it can be used to describe the whole group.
My apologies, I meant to say 'the great number of violent acts done in the name of Islam...shows what happens when you are rushing to go to work. Though having said that exact phrase so much...it should perhaps have been obvious.

Quote:
Anecdotal evidence
Anecdotal evidence? Are you trying to say that 9-11 didn't happen, that the Spanish train bombings didn't happen, that the Bali bombings didn't happen, the the London tube bombings didn't happen? (and they are actually only the best known ones)...or just that Islamic radicals had nothing to do with them?

Are you saying that there aren't numerous Islamic terrorist organisations? just do a wikipedia search)What rock are you hiding under?

For all these Islamic Terrorist Organisations, are non-muslims (who don't convert) allowed in? No...so Islam is it's common inspiration

What about ISIL - is it inspired by Islam (of course it is, it's in the name, and only muslims are allowed to join). What's their goal...oh dear, to create an islamic state, and to do so through...extreme violence.

How many members are there of ISIL? 30,000 - 60,000 (depending on reports)...and they must all be deluded about Islam, most of them being life long followers.

And are you trying to say that Western countries aren't worried about radicalised muslims in their own countries being likely to commit terrorist acts, and that they aren't trackign them because of that? Again, what rock are you hiding under?

Are you saying that the destruction of numerous churches in a number of different countries, attended by natives to each of those countries, isn't motived by Religion (in this case, Islam)? Again, what rock are you hiding under?

When church destruction and attacks on egyptian christians in Egypt went through the roof...what party had come to power? Why, the Muslim Brotherhood. When they were booted, guess what happened? It settled down.

Are you saying that the Holy Warriors of the Afghanistan / Russia wars, who came from numerous countries around the world, weren't motivated by Islam? That would indicate ignorance (the point of this eample being how Islam inspires people into conflicts not otherwise remotely related to them)

The list of these sort of questions is so extensive, and the common thread is...Islam.

But of course...you refuse to even acknowledge the violence done in Islam's name with nonsense excuses like:
- you didn't provide any evidence (of course, I did, from P16-p21)
- you didn't define 'violence in the name of Islam' (it's self explanatory, shouldn't have to)
- when I did define it for you...you then claimed it was not a definition (it was - your argument was about evidence, rather than the definition being wrong)
- you then claimed 'it's not scientific' (of course...I just provided so many real life examples)....and then your lastest ridiculousness
- "9-11 and all other like incidents are only anecdotally related to Islam"

Seriously?

And you can't see how your credibility suffers from such ridiculous evasiveness?

_____________________
In any event, you aren't the first to engage in such close minded, evasive behaviour. It was the major reason I went to just posting links, and quite frankly I guess I'll return to that - it will eventually speak for itself to anyone that follows the ongoing examples around the world, and starts looking into the causes.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  1  
Thu 23 Oct, 2014 11:11 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Here we go back to defining the problem based on the evidence. You have defined the problem wrong when you claim it is Islam that is causing the violence.
By the way, stop looking for blame. My 2 claims about the religion are:
- Islam is a dangerous religion (which only requires that it be involved in/contribute to enough dangerous events to be dangerous)
- Islam contributes to the violence done in it's name (this means that other factors can also contribute)

Should I use another word in 'contributed to's place, then I consider doing so to be an inaccuracy on my part.

When I refer to both my & another anothers argument that Islam ### violence in it's name...inspires is the closest compromise...but contributes is the most accurate.
parados
 
  2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 06:19 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
By the way, stop looking for blame. My 2 claims about the religion are:
- Islam is a dangerous religion (which only requires that it be involved in/contribute to enough dangerous events to be dangerous)
- Islam contributes to the violence done in it's name (this means that other factors can also contribute)


Your 2 claims are what I am refuting. Are there Islamic terrorist organizations? Yes. Are there Christian terrorist organizations? Also yes.

If the fact that there are Islamic terrorist organizations is proof that Islam is a dangerous religion then by rights the fact that there are Christian terrorist organizations should lead to the same conclusion that Christianity is a dangerous religion.

Let me ask you.
Do you think Christianity is a dangerous religion?
Do you think Christianity contributes to the violence done in it's name?
If you are truly non biased then you would have to answer yes to both questions.

My position is that Christianity is not a dangerous religion and by the same standard neither is Islam even though there is evidence of both religions having groups committing violent acts in the name of that religion.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 08:53 am
@parados,
Quote:
both religions having groups committing violent acts in the name of that religion.


You will not find any kind of violence sanctioned by Christian doctrine. You will find violence sanctioned by Islam.

parados
 
  3  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:01 am
@coldjoint,
Actually you can find violence sanctioned by Christian doctrine. One needs only look at the abortion position of many Christians.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:06 am
@parados,
Quote:
Actually you can find violence sanctioned by Christian doctrine. One needs only look at the abortion position of many Christians.


You are grasping at straws, Shill. Show me where it says abortion is supported in the(NT) Christian doctrine. Christians are supposed to follow doctrine, they don't make it up as they go along. That you even think that shows how little you actually know.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:19 am
Quote:
ISIS IS ISLAM

But ISIS is true Islam in action. ISIS is following EXACTLY the teachings of the Quran and the Sunna of Muhammad. They are murdering, raping, enslaving and pillaging just as prophet Muhammad did in up to 100 of his jihad acts and campaigns, himself personally participating in 27 of those. He was a mass murderer, rapist, torturer, terrorist, slaver. Muhammad murdered over 3,000 people, and raped and enslaved thousands. Read about the crimes committed by Muhammad.

In claiming that “Hate and violence do not represent their religion”, “ murderers and criminals have no place in our ranks, in our religion”, and “What ISIS is doing is against the values of Islam” etc., those Muslim campaigners are clearly engaging in deception and outright lies about the teachings of Islam. The fact is: ISIS is acting on commands and teaching of atrocious verses of the Quran such as 47:4, 5:33, 9:29, 9:5. 3:151. For example:

Quran 47:4: “So when you meet those who disbelieve, strike necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either favor afterwards or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]...”

Quran 3:151: “We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve...”

Similar terrorism spurring commands can be found in the traditions of the prophet, for example in Bukhari 4:52.220: “I have been made victorious through terror”.

In fundamental Islam, EVERY WORD of the Quran is from the mouth of the Islamic God Allah, and every Muslim must believe and act up on them. Else they will become apostate.

For the edification of those Muslim campaigner and the Islamic scholars, what ISIS are doing are not any crime in Islamic terms. After all, they are just emulating what the Prophet of Islam committed in accordance of the commands of Allah in the Quran. Therefore, in the eyes of Islam, the ISIS Jihadis are Allah's anointed holy warriors doing the divine Islamic acts – slaying the infidels and are being slain in the process (Quran 9:111). In sum:

ISIS are simply following 164 Quranic teachings of Jihad.
ISIS is enslaving and raping Christian, Shiite and Yazidi girls and women as per the Quranic command (4.3, 4:24)
ISIS is torturing the infidels and opponents as per teachings of Quran 22:19-22.
ISIS are engaging in crucifixion as per command of Quran 5:33.
ISIS is beheading opponents and infidels as per teachings of Quran 8:12, 47:4.
ISIS mistreats women treats them as inferior and as sex-object as per the teachings of the Quran (4:34, 2:228, 4:11, 4:176, 2:223)
ISIS commit mass murder as commanded in Quran 2:191, 9:5, 8:67, 7:4.
ISIS commits genocide of Christians (also Yazidis and other non-Sunnis) as per Quran 8.17.
ISIS terrorize because Quran 8.60 commands so.
ISIS glorify martyrdom while trying to kill the kafirs as a means of guaranteed accession to Allah's orgy-laden immoral Paradise as per the teaching of Quran 9:111.
ISIS go on pillaging and capturing booty as per the teaching of Quranic Surah 8, entitled Spoils of War.
ISIS demand all other religions to submit to Islam as per commands of Quran 2.103, 2.286, 3.19, 48.16.
ISIS enslave infidels (Christians, Yazidis) and trades in slaves as per Quran 2.178.
ISIS extort jizya from Christians as per command of Quran 9:29.

In fact, ISIS choose their every action and policy based on the commands and teachings of the Quran and instances of the prophetic tradition, and any reader of the Quran and Sunnah would have clear idea of that. And this fact should clearly be known to those Muslim organizers and scholars involved in condemning the actions of ISIS. It is therefore clear the organizers of the #NotInMyName campaign are engaged in a patently disinformation and lying campaign to deceive non-Muslims in their effort to distract scrutiny from Islam.

Our world today faces a serious challenge from the barbaric and obscurantist forces of Islam, deriving inspiration from the foundational teachings of Islam. And it jeopardizes the progressive and peaceful future of us all – both Muslim and non-Muslim. What we need from those good-hearted Muslims is not a campaign of disinformation and deception, but honesty and courage to acknowledge the troublesome teachings of the Quran and Sunnah, and a debate about how they should deal with them.


Anyone, and that means you, Shill, can list 14 reasons with quotes from the NT that puts Christianity anywhere near that level of sanctioned violence.

I'll wait.


http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/138-jake-neuman/1585-not-in-my-name-a-campaign-of-disinformation-and-deception.html
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:41 am
@coldjoint,
So when did you sell your daughter into slavery Pinkie?

Supposed to follow doctrine is kind of a lame argument when I can point to tons of things that Christians don't follow. Just as in Islam, Christians pick and choose which verses they wish to uphold. There are plenty of verses in Islam that contradict the ones you keep posting.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:43 am
@parados,
Quote:
So when did you sell your daughter into slavery Pinkie?


And the verse from the NT that says that. I'll wait.
parados
 
  3  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:48 am
@coldjoint,
You want to eliminate over half the Christian Bible? I guess if we did that with the Koran I could eliminate all the verses you keep quoting.

You change standards based on your bias, Pinkie. Either you apply the same standard to all religion or you are biased.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:48 am
@parados,
Quote:
There are plenty of verses in Islam that contradict the ones you keep posting.


Apparently you do not know the principle of abrogation.
coldjoint
 
  -4  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:49 am
@parados,
Quote:
You want to eliminate over half the Christian Bible?


Name something I am eliminating?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Fri 24 Oct, 2014 09:58 am
@coldjoint,
Like I said, you are selectively picking your verses.

Where in the NT does it say homosexuality is an abomination?

I can hardly wait for you answer so I can point out the same book also calls for Sharia law.
 

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