The 'SOUL'. What is it?

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
You continue to confuse belief with knowledge.

There is no way of knowing if there are no gods...there is no way of estimating that there are no gods. All one can do is make a blind guess.

Again, the issue is belief not knowledge, you’re confusing the two. The estimation upon which someone bases the belief that there are no gods is based on a lack of experiential data.

E.g., you can base your belief that the NY Giants aren’t going to the Super Bowl because of their lack of wins, but you don’t know if they’ll go to the Super Bowl or not regardless. Distinctions of "reality" and "REALITY" are silly irrelevancies.

Frank Apisa wrote:

And if the blind guess is offered as "I believe there are no gods"...the word "believe" is being used to disguise (consciously or unconsciously) the fact that it is a blind guess.

Says you.

2 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

By the way...I noticed that you changed "I believe there are no gods"...to "I do not believe in gods."

They are completely different thoughts.

No they're not. They both express the same idea.

Frank Apisa wrote:

"I do not believe in gods" is simply a statement that the speaker is not among the people who do believe there are no gods.

That's a contradiction. See chai2's comment.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I don't believe most of my guesses are "blind".

Yeah, you do seem to be blind to that, Olivier. That blindness seems to be a large part of the disagreement we are having here.

Quote:

I rarely play the roulette or other hazard games. I usually conclude on stuff based on a deliberate critique and systematic consideration of data and the various theories that could explain the data. Of course there's always a leap of faith in the end. One has to BELIEVE at least SOME data, or one cannot ever conclude on anything....

Well...one can simply say, "I do not know...and don't have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess" on those things.

Like for instance, the question of "Are there no gods."

If you are going to guess blindly that there are none (and do not want to say what I suggested above), why not say, "I choose to blindly guess that there are no gods"...rather than "I believe there are no gods"...and then insist that it is NOT a blind guess?

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
You continue to confuse belief with knowledge.

There is no way of knowing if there are no gods...there is no way of estimating that there are no gods. All one can do is make a blind guess.

Again, the issue is belief not knowledge, you’re confusing the two. The estimation upon which someone bases the belief that there are no gods is based on a lack of experiential data.

E.g., you can base your belief that the NY Giants aren’t going to the Super Bowl because of their lack of wins, but you don’t know if they’ll go to the Super Bowl or not regardless. Distinctions of "reality" and "REALITY" are silly irrelevancies.

I am not confusing anything, Blue.

The bottom line is that the comment "I believe there are no gods"...is a blind guess pretending to be something else.

You simply do not have the ethical wherewithal to acknowledge that.

I find that interesting and humorous...so we can continue this discussion for as long as you want.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
And if the blind guess is offered as "I believe there are no gods"...the word "believe" is being used to disguise (consciously or unconsciously) the fact that it is a blind guess.

Says you.

Yup...and I am correct.

1 Reply

@InfraBlue,

InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
By the way...I noticed that you changed "I believe there are no gods"...to "I do not believe in gods."

They are completely different thoughts.

No they're not. They both express the same idea.

No...they are quite different.

One...the former, is the position taken by strong atheists. The other, the latter, is the position taken by most atheists here in this forum...and by weak atheists and agnostics everywhere.

One proffers a belief.

The other denies a belief...and is at the very core of weak atheism.

Sorry if that is too complicated for you to understand, but we can discuss it until it finally penetrates.

Quote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
"I do not believe in gods" is simply a statement that the speaker is not among the people who do believe there are no gods.

That's a contradiction. See chai2's comment.

It is not a contradiction in any way...no matter what chai may have said. We discussed it at length there...and we can discuss it here for as long as you want. You eventually will see that it is not a contradiction...although I doubt you will ever be able to acknowledge that it is.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

You make a lot of blind guesses about my way of thinking. And I don't think you understand your own thinking very well.

There is never enough unambiguous evidence to conclude. That's my point. Any conclusion worth drawing requires a leap of faith, always. Knowledge has a faith component in it. It cannot be achieved if you never trust any source of data for instance. Trusting the data = believing the data. Starting by believing your own eyes and what they see. Do you trust your senses Frank? I do, in general.

A belief is a guess you trust. Investing trust into ideas is important to be able to think. Otherwise, you're bound to remain at the ground level of reason, which is tautology.

As for gods or their absence, such a belief can also be based on experience: mystical experiences exist, as does despair. For instance, the experience of ultimate evil, eg the Holocaust, led some to conclude that the god they believed in does not exists.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Quote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
"I do not believe in gods" is simply a statement that the speaker is not among the people who do believe there are no gods.

That's a contradiction. See chai2's comment.

It is not a contradiction in any way...no matter what chai may have said. We discussed it at length there...and we can discuss it here for as long as you want. You eventually will see that it is not a contradiction...although I doubt you will ever be able to acknowledge that it is.

Oops...just re-read this...and I am wrong here. I added a word that made my comment totally incorrect...and you are correct that it is a contradiction, Blue.

I acknowledge my error.

I thought I had written "I do not believe in gods" is simply a statement that the speaker is not among the people who do believe there are gods."

I kept eliminating the "no" every time I read the sentence...and proofread it.

Here is what I am saying:

There are people who believe there are gods (is a GOD).

I am not among those people.

It is totally accurate to phrase that, "I do not believe in gods."

That is not the same as "I believe there are no gods."

The former merely states an absence of belief.

The latter actually states a belief.

But I was totally wrong in my original reply to you above...and I apologize. Thank you for calling it to my attention.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You make a lot of blind guesses about my way of thinking. And I don't think you understand your own thinking very well.

There is never enough unambiguous evidence to conclude. That's my point. Any conclusion worth drawing requires a leap of faith, always. Knowledge has a faith component in it. It cannot be achieved if you never trust any source of data for instance. Trusting the data = believing the data. Starting by believing your own eyes and what they see. Do you trust your senses Frank? I do, in general.

A belief is a guess you trust. Investing trust into ideas is important to be able to think. Otherwise, you're bound to remain at the ground level of reason, which is tautology.

As for gods or their absence, such a belief can also be based on experience: mystical experiences exist, as does despair. For instance, the experience of ultimate evil, eg the Holocaust, led some to conclude that the god they believed in does not exists.

Rather than try to dissect your comments here, Olivier...I will extend the same request I have been making repeatedly during this discussion.

I claim that the comment, "I believe there are no gods" is a BLIND GUESS disguised (purposefully or accidentally) by using the words "I believe" rather than "I blindly guess."

If you can offer ANY personal experience that leads to "I believe there are no gods" being anything other than a blind guess...

...please offer it so we can discuss it.

I think there is absolutely NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that can possibly lead to "I believe there are no gods" being anything other than a blind guess.

But I am willing to listen to what you or Blue are willing to offer...and to discuss and consider it.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I just gave you one: experiencing the holocaust have led some people to despair in god and thus to atheism.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

You still haven't understood that point????

There is only one reality, Frank. No need for 2.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I just gave you one: experiencing the holocaust have led some people to despair in god and thus atheism.

And you are suggesting that makes the statement "I believe there are no gods" something other than a blind guess disguised using the words "I believe" rather than "I blindly guess?"

Olivier...IT DOESN'T.

There are all sorts of catastrophes and hardships and inequities occurring all over the planet...and have been since recorded history started documenting what is going on.

How does any of that made a statement about no gods existing anything other than a blind guess?

Yes, they DO use the words "I believe"...but that is my point...and has been all along. The words "I believe" are being used to disguise the fact that what is being said is, "Because of this and that and the other thing...I am going to blindly guess that there are no gods, but because (consciously or accidentally) I do not want to phrase it, "I blindly guess there are no gods"...I am going to phrase it, "I BELIEVE there are no gods"...and that will give it stature the other wording could never give it.

Helltheists do it all the time, so why not atheists. Theists blindly guess there is a GOD...and phrase it, "I believe there is a GOD" (or more commonly, "I believe in GOD")...so why can't atheists do it with their blind guesses about REALITY?

But the bottom line, Olivier, is that any statement that there are no gods...IS PURELY A BLIND GUESS no matter what motivates it...and no matter that the blind guess is phrased, "I believe."

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You still haven't understood that point????

There is only one reality, Frank. No need for 2.

Huh????

0 Replies

@Frank Apisa,

But if one has a mystic experience, his belief in god can be grounded in experience. Similarly, the experience of evil (which is different from disasters: I am talking of the realization that there is no bottom to HUMAN evil) is often at the root of atheism. It's very hard to explain how bottomless evil was created by a benevolent god.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

But if one has a mystic experience, his belief in god can be grounded in experience.

If one has a mystic experience...he or she doesn't have a belief...he or she has absolute knowledge. We have all sorts of people here in A2K who have absolute knowledge that there is a GOD...and that the GOD has contacted them absolutely.

Either that, or the person has to consider that he is making a blind guess that the "mystic experience" is not a delusion...leading to a blind guess that there is a GOD.

But why are you so anxious to avoid the question about "I believe there are no gods?"

Isn't that a more interesting one?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I just added that part on non belief.

For the mystic experience, and as you pointed out yourself, one still has to TRUST one's own experience rather than attribute it to a hallucination. So there is always an element of belief, and also an experience, all mixed up.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Belief does not assure authenticity.
The nastier a nightmare is, the more it is believed,
until its victim awakens. It was bad because it was TRUSTED.

IF it were laffed at, and given the finger,
then it 'd not be so bad.

0 Replies

@InfraBlue,

All humans make some blind guesses and some educated guesses based on our personal perceptions. Each human decides what to believe or not to believe based on those perceptions. If anyone wishes to believe in god, that's their reality and their perception. For anyone to challenge them that they are only guessing is irrelevant. It's their belief, and their future actions will prove that belief. They will continue to pray and/or go to church. They will marry in a church. That's what is called commitment to their belief; it's their reality.

Frank's guesses are irrelevant.

2 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

"their reality"

IS AN OXYMORON.

0 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

You're right. The difference between a belief and a guess is essentially about commitment. One commits to a belief, usually for a very long time, but one does not commit to a guess. I can change my guesses every second if I want to, not my beliefs.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

You're right. The difference between a belief and a guess is essentially about commitment. One commits to a belief, usually for a very long time, but one does not commit to a guess. I can change my guesses every second if I want to, not my beliefs.

Commit all you want, Olivier, but any comment that asserts no gods...is nothing but a blind guess.

People who disguise that by calling their blind guess a "belief" are kidding themselves. A blind guess by any other name is still a blind guess.

"Kidding yourselves" is what some folk are committed to. IF you want to be a part of that...that is your choice.

By the way...I am NOT the one with multiple realities...ci is.

Why is it that you do not discuss that with him rather than pretending I was the one with multiple realities...and coming at me with your disagreement?

2 Replies

The 'SOUL'. What is it?

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