fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2014 08:36 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
What time is it, Eccles?

What follows is arguably the most famous single sequence in any Goon Show. The show is The Mysterious Punch-up-the-Conker (series 7, episode 18). About 25 minutes in the show, Bluebottle and Eccles are "in the ground floor attic" of a clock repairers. After listening to lots of timepieces ticking, chiming, cuckooing etc. for a while...

Bluebottle What time is it Eccles?
Eccles Err, just a minute. I, I've got it written down 'ere on a piece of paper. A nice man wrote the time down for me this morning.
Bluebottle Ooooh, then why do you carry it around with you Eccles?
Eccles Well, umm, if a anybody asks me the ti-ime, I ca-can show it to dem.
Bluebottle Wait a minute Eccles, my good man...
Eccles What is it fellow?
Bluebottle It's writted on this bit of paper, what is eight o'clock, is writted.
Eccles I know that my good fellow. That's right, um, when I asked the fella to write it down, it was eight o'clock.
Bluebottle Well then. Supposing when somebody asks you the time, it isn't eight o'clock?
Eccles Ah, den I don't show it to dem.
Bluebottle Ooohhh...
Eccles [Smacks lips] Yeah.
Bluebottle Well how do you know when it's eight o'clock?
Eccles I've got it written down on a piece of paper!
Bluebottle Oh, I wish I could afford a piece of paper with the time written on.
Eccles Oohhhh.
Bluebottle 'Ere Eccles?
Eccles Yah.
Bluebottle Let me hold that piece of paper to my ear would you? - 'Ere. This piece of paper ain't goin'.
Eccles What? I've been sold a forgery!
Bluebottle No wonder it stopped at eight o'clock.
Eccles Oh dear.
Bluebottle You should get one of them tings my grandad's got.
Eccles Oooohhh?
Bluebottle His firm give it to him when he retired.
Eccles Oooohhh.
Bluebottle It's one of dem tings what it is that wakes you up at eight o'clock, boils the kettil, and pours a cuppa tea.
Eccles Ohhh yeah! What's it called? Um.
Bluebottle My granma.
Eccles Ohh... Ohh, ah wait a minute. How does she know when it's eight o'clock?
Bluebottle She's got it written down on a piece of paper!
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:25 am
@One Eyed Mind,
Quote:
Car's OP is calling it a star, when it's not the star
Thanks Mind but why isn't this patently obvious to everyone
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2014 10:44 am
@fresco,
My favourite line has to be.

Oh, I wish I could afford a piece of paper with the time written on it.

You should be able to afford enough paper to cover all eventualities.
0 Replies
 
carbonfootie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2014 01:27 pm
@dalehileman,
Yeah Dale all is good with everyone's comments. It's just when you imagine matter or galaxies earlier positions, like last week or a million yrs ago, they must have been closer or else the theory of a singularity is nonsense. So one version of the past suggests everything at its furthest from us, while the other version suggests everything is closer together.
dalehileman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2014 02:06 pm
@carbonfootie,
Quote:
So one version of the past suggests everything at its furthest from us, while the other version suggests everything is closer together.
Thanks Car but as I had always understood, the "singularity" was everything closest together but then with the Big Bang they go further apart

Have I somehow lost track of theory
One Eyed Mind
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2014 05:19 pm
@dalehileman,
I don't see why not. The planets near the sun are very close. As the planets go on, they get further away from each other.
0 Replies
 
carbonfootie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Sep, 2014 05:24 pm
@fresco,
There is an us last week for example, when presumably galaxies were closer to us.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2014 12:05 am
@carbonfootie,
Sure I can agree that there "was", but you are missing the point.

The fact that "we" have common language involving scenarios of past, present and future is always related to current human social practice. When we visualize a universe in "the past" or "without observers" that visualization is always current or "in our mind's eye". Our ideas of "what WAS the case" is inextricable from what we think "IS the case". We evoke concepts of cause and pattern to support our confidence in the prediction of the future.
But the philosophical issue is that we don't merely observe the universe, we interact with it. Our current perceptual receptive state is always a function of past interactions which sets up our selective focus and interpretive activities. Such constructive activity is paradigmatic. i.e. subject to revolutionary shifts such that is-ness and was-ness cannot be set in stone.
Quote:
We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning
.
Werner Heisenberg

Apologies for heavy use of inverted commas and emphasis


0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  0  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2014 08:31 am
@Lustig Andrei,
The Perceptional Law is not a theory but a law because applies to all, humans, animals, plants, instruments, you name it.

The reason is very simple.

Our brains are calibrated to perceive solely the present. This is in order to protect ourselves from dangerous illusions.

You can't perceive the current image of an object mixed with the past images of other objects. Our brains can't do that. All stimuli is perceived when the observed and observed are both present simultaneously in their own locations.

So, you can't perceive the passing by of an airplane thru the sky together with the past images of the stars. To imply such a capability in our brains is to reach the limits of the the absurd.

Just think that you can perceive the past solid ground where today is a passing river, and that your brain mixes both images (the past and the present) and you decided to walk over the "past"solid ground where today is a river. For this reason, there is no chance at all of perceiving the past, even at the second rate level. For example, you are reading my words right now, and after you finish reading this "word", what you have read before is not the present anymore, and you must re-read and perceive my words as "the present" each time.

The rate of a fraction of a second for us to perceive what is the present won't increase, but is just the period that takes for signals from the stimuli until is decoded by our brains. This won't mean that the further the body, the greater will be the period that takes for signals from the stimuli to the decoding process in the brain.

I might sound arrogant, but The Perceptional Law is real, and if you think about it, it is necessary to have it as a rule for all perception.

The big trouble that dominates science in several aspects is the poor understanding of what is perceived, because if you fall in illusions without knowing it, your whole theories will be nothing but fallacies, as today several accepted theories of science are: just pure fallacies.
0 Replies
 
carloslebaron
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2014 09:47 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Yes Lustig, I recognize that I'm an arrogant person, even further, I know I'm a mother "f", and I have no problems when others call me that way.

And yes, the studies in psychology are all in error when they confuse traveling light with images of objects. Due to this error -perhaps made in order to support or have concordance with fake theories of physics- is when we find that mystical events are mixed with doctrines of science, causing the pursue of knowledge into a circus of fairy tales.

I will give you an example that no one of the arguments of seeing the past can contradict.

You send a spacecraft to outer space. You have a video recorder that will take the image of the spacecraft since it departs. You have filmed it from one inch of distance of its surface up to the cabin where the video recorded will be located. The video recorder never stops and is now connected to a telescope.

The spacecraft is now traveling near Jupiter, and you still recording its "current image". And you know that such is its current image because you have been filming its image since its depart. So, the spacecraft still is located right where you can see it.

It should be a complete lunacy if you imply that the image of the spacecraft is a 30 minutes past image, because by fact, your recording stays that there is no other perceived image but the current image of the spacecraft.

So, regardless of how long it takes for light from Jupiter's area to reach earth, the image of the spacecraft still is its actual location. The video recording won't lie to you, you are witness that such is the current location of the spacecraft and you can review the film as many times as you want.

It can't be that the current and present location of the perceived spacecraft is orbiting now around a 30 minutes past image of Jupiter. Hello?

And the spacecraft can travel the furthest as it can be perceived, and the daily video recording will back up that the perceived image is in the existing and current location of the spacecraft, simultaneously with our present and current location as observers

There are no gaps found in the recording video, nothing that implies a "separation" between a past and a present image of the spacecraft, neither surrounding planet Jupiter, or coming out of the solar system, or arriving to Alpha Century.

The Perceptional Law is the greatest discovery because discards what is a myth in science, and vindicates science as a serious path for knowledge.

This Law of Perception was discovered 14 years ago, and as I know that will be ignored and rejected by the pride of the ones who fell in the error of perceiving the past, I just laugh of their ignorance imposed to others by their power of manipulation.

You can invent as many calculations you want to justify something against the recoding video of the spacecraft, but nothing will contradict the fact that we perceive solely the present of the universe.

Call me arrogant, but The Perceptional Law rules, it is not a theory, and it does exists as a law. There are no exceptions that can compromise at all the perception of the present in humans, animals, machines, and anything invented to perceive the universe in micro and macro level.





mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 06:23 pm
@carbonfootie,
Perception is always in the present. None of the stars we see (even our sun) are there anymore. Even as I write this, our sun may have imploded and vanished - We wouldn't know for 8 minutes, then it wouldn't matter.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2014 11:56 pm
@carloslebaron,
Rolling Eyes
That's a lot of verbiage wandering around the well known concept of "time" as a psychological construct. However, you shoot yourself in the foot wittering about "The Perceptual Law". Its not a "law"...its an aspect of a philosophical position adopted by pragmatists in opposition to naive realists. The irony is that the concept of "laws" belongs to "naive realism" since it assumes an axiomatic absolute "is-ness".!

Don't worry. Philosophical ignorance about ontology is not unusual! Wink

(The terms in italics are worth researching).

0 Replies
 
 

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