Do you agree with the philosophy of Naturalism?

Rex, how do you like "all things enlighten us" (zen saying)

It's really funny what people will call "natural" versus "supernatural" or "unnatural". Even humans with their ideas of gods came from nature originally - and if god created nature, than isn't he natural too? Whatever your philosophy on the subject, everything in existence is natural, whether it be "synthetic" or "man-made", or "supernatural" or "unnatural" or "artificial" because doesn't it all come from the same source, whatever that source may be? If anything is natural, everything is.

Well put, Rufio. Natural-supernatural is a false dichotomy.

To me supernatural denotes that epiphenomenon of nature containing the conscious effect of mind as created in and through time by its own manufacture definitely not by anything to which nature has no recourse or history. "Super" in this sense as prefixed to "nature" I regard as the extension of its own compounding complexity and NOT as something preeminent over it which can be its other meaning but changes the idea completely. In this respect, "natural-supernatural" is very much a false dichotomy.

I like it.


Fine...I'll elaborate some
I believe it's true for anyone who has an open mind. All things refer to all actions or phenomena, simply the way things work or are(if that's not the same thing, it doesn't matter how you look at it); then we can say that all of them posses the information of understanding them. Understanding == Enlightenment(of course, I do not believe in the zen stories describing it as 1 state. An absolute. Either enlightened or not would be polarity. 0 or 1. That would completely miss the point). Therefor, the more we look at things the way they truly are (and things are always around us, as is nothingness), the more we understand and we are thus enlightened.

It'll be school soon for me, so I won't be able to communicate in a decent verbal linguistic manner. And I do suspect my thoughts will bounce back to reflexes without any real depth. The expanding of my consciousness will also decrease; so forgive all future posts. But by all means, blame this one on me. Any incoherent babbling thus far is completely unrelated to the scholastic experience called 'education'.

Rex, are you studying IN BELGIUM or abroad? Once school begins you'll probably not want to spend too much time and mental energy with us. I'm a retired university professor so I have all the time that my other leisure activities permit. But I will miss the stimulation of younger minds like yours and Alikimr's.
This is how I interpret "All things enlighten me," for what it's worth. I see, in my meditation practice, that I do not have or receive experiences, sensations, phenomena. I AM those experiences--as in the Hindu saying, "Tat tvam asi (that art thou). Therefore, it seems obvious to me that when I see anything, my computer screen, a flying bird, the taste of salt, I am seeing my true nature. This is enlightenment. And we all have it.

'This is enlightenment. And we all have it.'
Yet too often we forget.

'I am seeing my true nature.'
This confuses me, as has, for a long period of my life, meditation. We're all part of the same thing, I can understand that. Each time the universe is brought up and somebody wants to travel beyond the edges, you point out that you remain part of it, it's like a fish trying to get out of the water. Or better yet, a fish from the deep rising to the surface, the lack of 'pressure' would 'evaporate' us. I understand those analogies and like them.
Yet for meditation, I needed something else. I recently came across the following explanation:
It seems obvious by now that the immediately observable universe is a
shapeless vast of ice and rock which itself doesn't offer a single
clue about any meaning to our lives. in fact the more we know about it
the more meaningless and unimportant we seem, and I think that fact is
the clue itself. We are looking for meaning in the physical world and
we are rewarded by the exact opposite.

My guess is that maybe this indicates that we have to look for meaning
and dimension in depths of our brains through meditation or focus.
It's probably something people have to find on their own because
anything anyone ever discovered and tried to relate to other people
would be lost in the personal interpretation and some of the things we
discover will probably be indescribable with words we have developed
in the material world. Therefor I don't think you could ever have a
pure religion beyond one person. Lots of crazy things happen in our
dreams that defy earthly experiences and make no sense except when we
dream, and I think that's an amazing thing in this otherwise
predictable and uniform world.

Modern living in a capitalist society is almost completely based
around practicality and material concern, or uniform religions
practices, or stimulating ourselves with entertainment, so I have no
doubt that we probably can think and experience in ways with our
brains that we have never had cause to discover or practice which
could reveal clues to meaning of life.
Which I liked. And although meditation, drugs and death might be the three most common paths to enlightenment, I've liked discussing here and I feel it has helped my quite a bit on my 'way' (get it, path, 'do', no? Ah forget it)

The reason for my reduced activity (I study in Belgium by the way) will be mind numbingly boring routine which, let me put it bluntly will incapicate (Oh god, is it starting already. Is this NOT a word?) me to use the english language as it should be used. I do not have the luxury of university professors, I have english teachers who fail to match my linguistic skills on far too many occasions. Therefor, my ability to express myself will diminish together with the depth of my thoughts.
I'm still in high school in case you wondered. I'd hate to compare myself to Einstein, but just like him I've repeated a grade because I lacked intellectual stimulation. I can't afford spending time here. Well, perhaps on weekends Because, I really DO want to, but I just can't risk 'wasting' my time on 'useless' activities which serve no 'function' in 'society'. The concepts repel me too often. Or at least they did in the past.
I'll change, I am changed, I will change. I am change.

It's "incapacitate". High school? Wow. You'll go far. I wish I had more university students like you. Just stay away from too much drugs.
By the way, Rex, let me suggest that you try very hard to find some value in every class you HAVE to take. If courses do not seem relevant at first site, give them a chance. TRY to find relevance in them. You might be surprised how this can help. You want a broad education, a general background. You'll focus or specialize when you get to graduate school.

I like the fact that you said 'too much' drugs
Noted, don't worry (vacations only )

And I'm going to try my darnest this year (but I say that every year just before school starts, the ultimate demotivator) because I see the necessity of learning things by heart even if they aren't directly applicable.

So, what was this topic about again?

Oh well, I could just say I think it's either wrong nor right and scream nondualism here and there and you'd still agree with me :p

I would suggest, IF I may, that you suspend, for the time being, your judgements regarding the relevance of materials you are expected to learn. Assume ( for the time being, again) that you cannot confidently know for the long run what will be relevant (I'm talking both about high school and university life). And know that roughtly 80% of what you learn you will forget, but that forgotten knowledge will have changed your for the better. I found my university student life (actually lives: I went to four institutions) the most enjoyable time of my life. I worked for the glories and the fellowships, knowing all along that when I rebel--i.e., assert my independence--it will be AFTER I have gained my degrees (which are, after all, mere licenses to work) and tenure. You might find this too pragmatic or an excuse for compliance, but it worked for me.

'nature' is an evanescent wart, on the face of reality.

[there is nothing 'natural' about nature!]

I like the notion, implied by BoGoWo, that "nature" is an epiphenomenon of an underlying Reality (similar to Kant's relationship between phenomena and noumena).

(there is nothing that is not natural).

Learn and forget. That's what my sensei(japanese for teacher, most commonly used for teachers of martial arts), always taught me. It's what his sensei taught him.

You learn something and rather than consciously doing it, after repeating and training you'll start doing it without thinking about it. You'll simply DO it. It will become, not your second nature, but your nature. You'll be able to do things while they feel natural. Because they are (well, aikido is).
But one could say, because it is possible, it is natural. That is the nature of nature, to be possible.

For those of you reading, still stuck to the superficial daily notions of words, let me just say this (admitted, it's a bit more inspirational than relevant to the topic, but if you change man by nature, you get the same idea):
Man can do more than what he thinks is impossible.

As for my studies, buddhism has amongst other things taught me acceptance and trying regardless of the result. Intention is everything (helping me with a more pragmatic approach on things and acceptance of what I know I must do. Perhaps one day it'll help me concentrate. My sensei said meditation would/should/could help. But there's too much letting go of thought imho. I've seen his forgetfulness )

Rex, it is my experience that meditation (at least the soto zen method of shikantaza or Krishnamurti's method of "choiceless awareness) does not serve to enhance one's powers of concentration. In these "methods" one lets go of all mental effort. One is passively yet intently aware of whatever appears in consciousness. After practicing this way for the last twenty years (I concentrated before that), my mind has become "soft" and more unfocused. I prefer it that way. I think that is the state of mind needed in judo and aikido. What do you say?

It is.

To be aware.