8
   

What's the object equivalent of "whose?"

 
 
Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 03:25 pm
When I talk about a person: "I saw John yesterday, whose daughter I babysat"

the "whose" refers to John.

But for an object: "I'ts the saran wrap, whose dimensions I'm taking right now"

can i use "whose" for objects as well or is there another word for the object equivalent?
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 03:42 pm
@iScience,
Why not just "I'm taking the dimensions of the saran wrap."
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 04:21 pm
@iScience,
No. The personal pronoun 'who' and its variants (whom, whose) is either masculine or feminine, never neutral. Saran wrap can never be a 'who'. It is, rather, a 'which.' You could say:
'It's the Saran wrap, the dimensions of which I'm taking right now.' But that's an awkward pretentious-sounding sentence. I would just follow c.i.'s advice and simplify it.
contrex
 
  3  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 12:23 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
No. The personal pronoun 'who' and its variants (whom, whose) is either masculine or feminine, never neutral. Saran wrap can never be a 'who'. It is, rather, a 'which.' You could say:
'It's the Saran wrap, the dimensions of which I'm taking right now.' But that's an awkward pretentious-sounding sentence. I would just follow c.i.'s advice and simplify it.


I have to disagree. In both US and British English you can use 'whose' as an alternative to 'of which'.

Whos (MIddle English) genitive of who, what

Any dictionary will tell you that 'whose' can be a determiner meaning 'of whom or which' (used to indicate that the following noun belongs to or is associated with the person or thing mentioned in the previous clause)[/i] (Oxford dictionaries)

Whose

pronoun
1.
(the possessive case of who used as an adjective):
Whose umbrella did I take? Whose is this one?
2.
(the possessive case of which used as an adjective):
a word whose meaning escapes me; an animal whose fur changes color.
3.
the one or ones belonging to what person or persons:
Whose painting won the third prize?

(Dictionary.com - also see Oxford Dictionaries, Merriam-Webster, etc)

Further examples of usage (2):

The word whose meaning escapes me
Chicago is a city whose attractions are many
A house whose windows are broken
A story whose purpose is to entertain
An article whose subject I have never heard of
The law courts, whose decisions were important
The first poem whose publication he ever sanctioned

This is fine, except that the apostrophe in the first word is in the wrong place, and Saran Wrap is a US product name belonging to Dow Chemical which is spelled with initial capital letters (in British English we call that type of material "cling film"):

I'ts the saran wrap, whose dimensions I'm taking right now



cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 10:52 am
@contrex,
You may be correct, but to most people's ears, it just doesn't sound right, and that's what counts in English grammar. To most of us, it's called 'standard English.'

How many in the English speaking world would use "whose" in that manner?

Lustig Andrei
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 10:56 am
@cicerone imposter,
Thx, c.i. I was thinking the same thing.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 12:02 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
You may be correct, but to most people's ears, it just doesn't sound right, and that's what counts in English grammar. To most of us, it's called 'standard English.'

How many in the English speaking world would use "whose" in that manner?


It is very common in the British English part of the English speaking world and in the US part also. I do not agree that what "sounds right" is what counts. If an English learner asks if a particular usage is acceptable, and some people say "it doesn't sound right", which really just means "I don't hear that usage very often", and others say "look, here, it's listed in three different dictionaries from both US and British sources", who should the learner take notice of?

BN18 - Information about dual nationality - Gov.uk
... you should contact the Consulate or High Commission of the country whose nationality you already hold for further advice before you apply.

BERNE CONVENTION, AS REVISED - Article 5
www.law.cornell.edu/treaties/berne/5.html
Legal Information Institute
... in the case of works published simultaneously in several countries of the Union which grant different terms of protection, the country whose legislation grants ...

View Extract - Cambridge Scholars Publishing
www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/61760
These become visible in many different urban public spaces even though they are made by the “invisible” actors of the city whose creative will occupies another ...

Isaiah 51:15 For I am the LORD your God, who stirs up the ...
biblehub.com/isaiah/51-15.htm
Bible Hub
But I am the LORD thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared:

Routledge Philosophy GuideBook to Aristotle and the ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=1134529791
Vasilis Politis - 2004 - ?Philosophy
the duration of the process of generation of the thing whose form or essence it is. For otherwise neither the thing itself, once generated, nor the process of its ...

The New Dimensions in Learning English I' 2003 Ed.
books.google.com/books?isbn=9712334228
Flores, Et Al
It is the thing he cannot bear to lose,4 it is the thing whose passing he watches with infinite sorrow and regret,5 it is the thing whose loss he must lament forever,6 ...

The Event of the Thing: Derrida's Post-deconstructive Realism
books.google.com/books?isbn=1442612657
Michael Marder - 2011 - ?History
The obvious answer brings up the thing, but also the work – the thing whose thinghood works, and the animated work whose workability bethings, becomes ...

Behold the Book, whose leaves display - Hymnary.org
www.hymnary.org/text/behold_the_book_whose_leaves_display
Behold the Book, whose leaves display. Jesus, the Life, the Truth, the Way; Read it with diligence, with prayer, Search it, and you shall find Him there. So let me ...

The 2011 book lists digested | Life and style | The Guardian
www.theguardian.com › Life & style › The G2 2011 review
The Guardian
Dec 28, 2011 - 11 The book whose title I can't quite remember by an author who once gave me a jacket quote.

Introduction and General Usage in Defining Clauses
https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/owlprint/645/
Purdue University
... family whose house burnt in the fire was immediately given a complimentary suite in a hotel. The book whose author won a Pulitzer has become a bestseller.

Whose - Cambridge Dictionary - Cambridge University Press
dictionary.cambridge.org/.../w...
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary
... whose name I can't remember. Shirley has a 17-year-old daughter whose ambition is to be a photographer. This is the book whose title I couldn't remember.

Christianity and the Transformation of the Book: Origen, ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=0674037863
Anthony GRAFTON - 2009 - ?History
Clearly, the philosophers of the Roman world developed and perpetuated a rich and long-lived culture of the book, whose roots lay in the Hellenistic world, and ...

Book at Harvard Library Is Bound in Human Skin - NBC News
www.nbcnews.com/.../book-harvard-library-bound-huma...
NBCNews.com
Jun 5, 2014 - Houssaye, a French author, gave the book — whose title translates to "Destinies of the soul" — to a friend and noted doctor in the mid-1880s, ...

Liber DCCC - The Ship - Libers - Aleister Crowley
hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib800ship.html
by Hermetic Library - Pilot the ship whose name is Death! Advancing ever to the east, The holy pilgrims pace. To the live God comes the dead priest. To front Him face to face,

A Historical Guide to Joseph Conrad - Page 68 - Google Books Result
books.google.com/books?isbn=0195332784
John Peters - 2010 - ?Literary Criticism
The first mate was responsible for the stowage of the ship, whose trim (the relative draft at bow and stern) influenced its speed, and whose location of the center ...

Ship of Ghosts: The Story of the USS Houston, FDR's ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=0307490882
James D. Hornfischer - 2009 - ?History
For the ship whose death had already been announced gleefully and repeatedly by Japanese propagandists, that had avoided one trap after another, that was ...

Missing plane MH370: HMS Echo in 'black box' search - BBC
www.bbc.com/news/uk-27001998
British Broadcasting Corporation
Apr 13, 2014 - The ship, whose specialist equipment has been adapted to pick up signals from the plane's black box flight recorders, arrived in the search ...





cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 12:21 pm
@contrex,
I don't see anything wrong with this statement,
Quote:
Purdue University
... family whose house burnt in the fire was immediately given a complimentary suite in a hotel. The book whose author won a Pulitzer has become a bestseller.


Nor this,
Quote:
whose nationality
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 12:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with this statement,
Quote:
Purdue University
... family whose house burnt in the fire was immediately given a complimentary suite in a hotel. The book whose author won a Pulitzer has become a bestseller.


Nor this,
Quote:
whose nationality



Why should you? What is your point?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 01:25 pm
@contrex,
We never argued about the use of that word with animate pronouns, and you still saw fit to include them in your list. What for? What's your point?
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 01:35 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

We never argued about the use of that word with animate pronouns, and you still saw fit to include them in your list. What for? What's your point?


I just did a quick Google for examples of the type of usage being enquired about. I then copied whole lists of results straight off the Google page. Some examples of the other usage were present in some of the copied material. So what? If anything, it shows that both are legitimate.


cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 02:17 pm
@contrex,
So what? Just because something is admissible doesn't make it the practice of most people.

If the use was that common, I'm sure you would be able to find many examples here on a2k.


BTW, anyone can find almost anything on Google that's not considered 'normal practice.'
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  2  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 04:18 pm
Regardless of what you say, using 'whose' with non-persons is very common and quite acceptable standard English. Stop trolling.
Lustig Andrei
 
  0  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 04:30 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Regardless of what you say, using 'whose' with non-persons is very common and quite acceptable standard English. Stop trolling.



If the practice were as 'common' as your dictionaries insist, I would not have made the mistake of saying it is 'never' done. Apparently 'never' is too long a time; I do not, however, accept the judgement that the usage is 'common.'
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 15 Aug, 2014 05:38 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Neither do I, and I won't attempt to guess whose wrong here! LOL

Quote:
whose
ho͞oz/
determiner & pronoun
1.
belonging to or associated with which person.
"whose round is it?"
determiner
1.
of whom or which (used to indicate that the following noun belongs to or is associated with the person or thing mentioned in the previous clause).
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 Aug, 2014 07:27 am
@cicerone imposter,
Me.

(last post: "person or thing")
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2014 04:27 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:

contrex wrote:

Regardless of what you say, using 'whose' with non-persons is very common and quite acceptable standard English. Stop trolling.



If the practice were as 'common' as your dictionaries insist, I would not have made the mistake of saying it is 'never' done. Apparently 'never' is too long a time; I do not, however, accept the judgement that the usage is 'common.'

Maybe JTT'll run a Google search and see just how many times it comes up in those instances.

For what it's worth, I use the word 'whose' in that way.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2014 04:31 pm
@InfraBlue,
That's one! LOL Anybody else?
BTW, can you cut and paste one of your sentences used that way - before this became an issue on a2k? Several would even be better!
0 Replies
 
 

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