When did it become OK to kill human shields?

Bullshit. Hamas is notorious for hiding out among civilians not to protect themselves but, rather, to encourage Israelis to create some "collateral damage." It's their way of making the Israelis look bad in the world press and encourage discussions that head in the direction you're headed in with this thread. Hamas and the Islamic Brotherhood and the rest of those mass murderers know quite well they cannot win in a contest of arms with Israel. So they use the psychological tools available.

I'm sorry but this is one issue where I part company with most of my friends here on A2k. In my opinion -- which I do not consider humble -- Israel has every right to exist as a state and to take any steps its leadership deems necessary to protect itself from extinction, which, after all, is the goal of Hamas and the PLO and every other Islamic entity in the Levant. It is unfortunate that innocent civilians get killed as a result of acts which are no more than self-defensive. But, in the long run, the responsibility and blame rests with the aggressor, not the defender.

If I'm going to lose some friends as a result of this stand, so be it. That, too, is unfortunate but it's where I stand on this issue.

Thank you for your response. You are absolutely right about my direction for this thread. Israel is acting in a way I find morally reprehensible. They should be held accountable in the world press, and yes that means they should look bad.

Immoral acts should be portrayed as immoral. That is the best way to stop them from happening.



The phrase you used, "any steps the leadership deems necessary to protect itself from extinction" is a key part of what I am talking about. Any steps? That is an awfully big catchphrase that encompasses an huge amount of acts. This logic can be used to justify anything no matter how brutal (and maybe it has).

Should every country decide to do any action, no matter how immoral, that the leadership deems necessary to protect itself from extinction?

The idea that the present Israeli action in Gaza, and the thousands of deaths that are resulting is necessary to prevent Israel's extinction is ridiculous. As is the argument that the deaths from Israeli bullets and bombs are all Hamas' fault. This morally empty argument since it is clear that if Israel wasn't acting in this way, these deaths would not be happening.

There are two partners in the immoral dance.

In the final analysis, my point is that Israel does not target civilians. That, indeed, would be reprehensible. But the Israeli government has an obligation to protect its citizens from the likes of Hamas by destroying the aggressor. If this results in some civilian casualties, the fault is not Israel's but, rather, of those cowardly terrorists who even use their own people -- including children and pregnant women -- as suicide bombers. Let's put the blame where it belongs.

Those are awfully empty words. Israel does not "target" civilians? How does that make any moral difference?

The fact is that this Israeli military action is killing hundreds of civilians.

The Israeli government made their decision knowing that a large number of civilians would die as a result. The Israeli leaders knew that their decision would result in the deaths of several hundreds of Palestinians civilians before they made that decision.

This bellicose rhetoric can be used to justify any brutal act, but it fails. Saying that Hamas is also morally reprehensible doesn't justify the actions of this brutal Israeli action.

What Israel is doing is morally reprehensible.

Your point is wrong, this video is proof that Israel targets unarmed civilians.


Whatever Israel's concerns, the slaughter of 1000+ Palestinians, including 218 children, 2/3 of whom are under 12, in order to stop the threat of rocket attacks that have caused minor structural damage is completely disproportionate and constitutes a war crime.

The siege of Gaza kills Palestinians every day during relative peace. Israel deliberately denies lifesaving drugs, which have no ulterior purpose, access to Gaza.

If Israel wants peace they need to stop the occupation of the West Bank and the siege of Gaza.

Are you willing to use these justifications of violence by Israel to justify acts of violence in other conflicts.

For example, the people who shot down Malaysia airlines flight 17 were clearly not targeting civilians. Their aim was to shoot down Ukrainian military planes, not Malaysian airliners.

Does this mean that they are not responsible for these deaths?

If you are really arguing based on principle, that principle should apply in any conflict.

Since I posted proof of Israel targeting civilians LA has posted a lot, but not on this thread.

Make of that what you will.

What you say may be true, that Israel does not deliberately target civilians; however, does it make a difference when there is no where for these Civilians to go? No where to hide from the attacks with practically every building is riddled with bullets? Even the many wounded in hospitals find themselves targeted. What kind of government targets hospitals and schools, knowing full well people might be trying to find help from doctors there as well as shelter? Israel's propaganda is that Hamas is hiding weapons there. Does that make it right for Israel to target these people who're hemmed in, confined by the Israeli siege for 7 years? These civilians are sitting ducks. How can they not target civilians when the Palestinians have simply no where to turn? A school was hit today and 15 children were killed. They may not plan to target civilians but no matter how one look at it civilians are being massacred in big numbers!

What you can make of that is that I feel I have adequately stated my position on this thread. You may, of course, totally disagree with me. That is your prerogative. You may even willify me if you wish. I have no intention to keep on posting the same thing over and over again in my defense as so many here seem wont to do. I have posted similar sentiments on other threads to make my feelings known. Again, I do not intend ti keep it up and continue parroting what I've said already. I merely reserve the right to comment on anything I deem worth commenting on.

Many in the IDF and among the settlers do not see Palestinians as human beings, but subhuman, certainly not their human equal. So some Israeli Defense Forces when shooting do not think they are targeting civilians but "vermin."

I've not vilified you. I've backed up what I've been saying with proof, and I challenge you to do the same. See if you can find video footage of Israeli soldiers treating Palestinian women and children humanely.

This video is made by ex members of the IDF about the appalling way Palestinians are treated in Hebron. They made it because ordinary metropolitan Israelis living in Tel Aviv refused to accept the truth of what was going on.


Faith is quite an easy thing to hold on to if it's never challenged. This video footage of an Israeli settler abusing a Palestinian woman in her own home, as Israeli soldiers stood idly by, caused outrage when it first came out, because the Israeli metropolitan elite, like you, preferred to bury their heads in the sand. It even forced the then prime minister, Ehud Barak, to offer a rare apology.

I did not mean to imply tat you had. I'm just saying that that, too, is a prerogative you have every right to exercise. You and I have usually gotten along pretty well and we seem to be in agreement on most issues. Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

Why? Especially when it exists at the expense of the Palestinian people?

That's a nonsensical argument. The United States exists at the expense of the indigenous American people, the so-called Indians. Why don't we white folks and the Africans whose ancestors we imported just get the hell out? The Jews have a far better claim on the territory of Israel than Europeans do on the North and/or South American continents. Unless, of course, you want to argue that Abraham and his people had no right to dispossess the Philistines and Cananites somewhere around 3,ooo b.c.e. to begin with. But that's a different argument from saying that Jews of the 20th Century had no right to return from the Diaspora and reclaim their ancient homeland.

Really? Leaving aside the fact that the USA is really big and Israel/Palestine really tiny for a minute, the science doesn't back up the argument.

The Palestinians and Sephardic Jews originally in Israel are very similar genetically, unlike those Jews from elsewhere whose genetic heritage is very diluted. Russian Jews look Russian, British Jews look British, African Jews look African, they've interbred so much that they can't seriously believe that that tiny part of their genetic makeup that originates in the Levant gives them priority over those whose heritage is pretty much 100%.

Lustig Andrei, personally I like and admire you. I'm disappointed in your recent post which states Israel is not at fault. Even after these exchanges with you, I will still like you, not merely because of your head of white hair which reminds me much of my late grandfather, but up until recently you appeared to my mind at least the fount of much wisdom......never speaking too much but usually right on target.

Hamas is firing rockets into Israel because the Zionist nation is occupying their territory and Gaza it is said by one who knows is "the largest open prison" with IDF troops surrounding said area..... the people of Gaza are unable to move freely or get medicine and or food easily. Can you imagine the crippling psychological damage being done to generations of Palestinians? Still Israel continues to build its settlements in the West Bank and Jerusalem for those vengeful wild-eyed settlers using American taxpayer dollars.

In your post you say "If this results in some civilian casualties, the fault is not Israel's"!! Surely you cannot be serious! There are over 1000 Palestinians dead and you say it's not Israel's fault? Pray tell whose fault is it if not the Israelis?! Did you expect these human being to accept their condition imposed on them by Israel and roll over?! Hamas is sending rockets into Israel which basically fall harmlessly on the ground and or are stopped by the Iron Domes supplied by the US, Israel's toady. The other day children were playing on the beach in Gaza and the IDF targeted and killed them. The destruction done to the people's homes with the rising toll of Palestinians killed daily is monstrously cruel....amounting to war crimes by the Zionist nation. Israel has the super weapons, the tanks, the air power and the defenseless Palestinians have stone age tools, i.e. rocks to throw and they simply have no where to hide from Israelis' attacks. If they hide in a school or in a hospital, Israel targets that with the pretext Hamas is hiding weapons there, even when the IDF see there are hundreds of people there. But supposing weapons were hidden in these places, that is no reason to take out hundreds of lives which cannot be restored! For God's sake, where is Israel' humanity?!?! The number of wounded Palestinians is staggering. Two airstrikes which hit the compound of Gaza City's main hospital and a nearby park killed ten children and wounded 46 on Monday.

My goodness, Israel is treating the Palestinians the same way the Nazis treated European Jews.....there just are no ovens yet! There was one war in the area where Israel actually used a chemical weapon, white phosphorus on the Palestinians.

The total Palestinian death toll rose to 1,058 on Sunday after 147 bodies were recovered from ruined buildings the previous day, while another 1,516 have been injured, added Unicef.

YES, Israel is responsible, like who else? The rocket that hit another hospital yesterday was said by Israel to be sent by Hamas. Now I call that BS number 1! Hamas' rockets are sent towards Israel not directed at Gaza. Many Americans call Netanyahu BullShitter number 1! Every time the Zionist PM opens his mouth one thinks of a partisan propagandist.

come on, the Jews have enough problems, they don't need this kind of talk

Palestinian people
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Palestinian people, also referred to as Palestinians are the modern descendants of the peoples who have lived in Palestine over the centuries, and who today are largely culturally and linguistically Arab due to Arabization of the region.[16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23] Despite various wars and exoduses, roughly one half of the world's Palestinian population continues to reside in historic Palestine, the area encompassing the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and Israel.[24] In this combined area, as of 2004, Palestinians constituted 49% of all inhabitants,[25] encompassing the entire population of the Gaza Strip (1.6 million), the majority of the population of the West Bank (approximately 2.3 million versus close to 500,000 Jewish Israeli citizens which includes about 200,000 in East Jerusalem), and 16.5% of the population of Israel proper as Arab citizens of Israel.[26] Many are Palestinian refugees or internally displaced Palestinians, including more than a million in the Gaza Strip,[27] three-quarters of a million in the West Bank,[28] and about a quarter of a million in Israel proper. Of the Palestinian population who live abroad, known as the Palestinian diaspora, more than half are stateless lacking citizenship in any country.[29] 3.24 million of the diaspora population live in neighboring Jordan[30] where they make up approximately half the population, 1.5 million live between Syria and Lebanon, a quarter of a million in Saudi Arabia, with Chile's half a million representing the largest concentration outside the Arab world.

Genetic analysis suggests that a majority of the Muslims of Palestine, inclusive of Arab citizens of Israel, are descendants of Christians, Jews and other earlier inhabitants of the southern Levant whose core may reach back to prehistoric times. A study of high-resolution haplotypes demonstrated that a substantial portion of Y chromosomes of Israeli Jews (70%) and of Palestinian Muslim Arabs (82%) belonged to the same chromosome pool.[31] Since the time of the Muslim conquests in the 7th century, religious conversions have resulted in Palestinians being predominantly Sunni Muslim by religious affiliation, though there is a significant Palestinian Christian minority of various Christian denominations, as well as Druze and a small Samaritan community. Though Palestinian Jews made up part of the population of Palestine prior to the creation of the State of Israel, few identify as "Palestinian" today. Acculturation, independent from conversion to Islam, resulted in Palestinians being linguistically and culturally Arab.[16] The vernacular of Palestinians, irrespective of religion, is the Palestinian dialect of Arabic. Many Arab citizens of Israel including Palestinians are bilingual and fluent in Hebrew.

What the United States did to the Native Americans was a horrible crime. If it were happening now, I would oppose it even more strongly than I oppose what Israel is doing. The people who did oppose it are my heroes.

The United States has offered the remaining Native Americans full citizenship with the right to vote. The United States has also moved away from any idea of being an ethnic state (we will be a majority minority state). We don't exclude the Native Americans from being part of the American experience-- almost all of us understand that that would be immoral.

I also strongly reject the mythical justification of Israel's occupation. The fact is that the Palestinians too have ancestors that were living in Israel for just as long as the Jews.... in fact genetic studies show they share the same ancient ancestors.

The world will be a better place when we stop using mythology to justify our actions.